Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

[earthling]

Then take a time machine back to the sixties and seventies, that is what you are describing. Why and how did the Plaza deviate from this?

My take is that it started when Highwoods took over the Plaza from Nichols Co in the 90s. Nichols Co kept a balance of amenities for the neighborhood. Highwoods ignored the neighborhood and raised rents that made it difficult for a local grocery/pharmacy with already tight margins. Simon/Taubman doesn't seem to be any more aware of the neighborhood, just trying to survive themselves,

[WoodDraw]

I always assumed it was more of a brand license/marketing thinf

it was only open during events, had no access from outside

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I thought it was a mistake from the beginning that they didn't design it to have a separate entrance to the plaza facing Grand so that it could be open when the arena was closed. If you want to control access to it during arena events, then design each entrance to be locked depending on which is needed or not needed that day.

They were restricted on what they could sell because they said everything the same price you’d find at any other qt. It would have been too difficult to arrange the store to do both event days and not.

As someone else said, it was mostly slushis and the food they were advertising. It wasn’t like you could walk in there and grab a beer and a bag of chips to take to your seat.

It was a bizarre set up from the beginning, but they were trying to advertise that they sold food. Whether it worked or not, you’d have to ask them. It closed like ten years ago.

[MidtownCat]

People love to extremely exaggerate how "bad" the Plaza is. It's doing fine.
-Lane4 Mega-apartment complex coming soon
-New Belleview apartment opening soon
-New Aloft hotel opening
-Huge streetcar station incoming
-Church parcel going be re-developed
-Many new idea's from city to re-develop tennis courts, streets, Nordtrom spot, etc.

Plaza will be fine and continues to get better. Narrative is BS.

Care to revisit this statement that all the problems are exaggerated? People have been dismissively saying this crap for years.

Some on here have actually been following the slow and steady degradation of this once proud civic landmark into the almost unrecognizable state that it is today. But many didn’t want to heed the warning signs.

Some apartments, an A-Loft, a Claire’s and an escape room isn’t going to fix this mess and the rest on your list is simply wishful thinking.

[alejandro46]

People love to extremely exaggerate how "bad" the Plaza is. It's doing fine.
-Lane4 Mega-apartment complex coming soon
-New Belleview apartment opening soon
-New Aloft hotel opening
-Huge streetcar station incoming
-Church parcel going be re-developed
-Many new idea's from city to re-develop tennis courts, streets, Nordtrom spot, etc.

Plaza will be fine and continues to get better. Narrative is BS.

Care to revisit this statement?

Some on here have actually been following the slow and steady destruction of this once proud civic landmark into the almost unrecognizable state that it is today.

Some apartments an A-Loft and an escape room isn’t going to fix this mess and the rest on your list is simply wishful thinking.

The plaza has its share of problems, but the streetcar has the potential to really reshape what it could be.

[MidtownCat]

People love to extremely exaggerate how "bad" the Plaza is. It's doing fine.
-Lane4 Mega-apartment complex coming soon
-New Belleview apartment opening soon
-New Aloft hotel opening
-Huge streetcar station incoming
-Church parcel going be re-developed
-Many new idea's from city to re-develop tennis courts, streets, Nordtrom spot, etc.

Plaza will be fine and continues to get better. Narrative is BS.

Care to revisit this statement?

Some on here have actually been following the slow and steady destruction of this once proud civic landmark into the almost unrecognizable state that it is today.

Some apartments an A-Loft and an escape room isn’t going to fix this mess and the rest on your list is simply wishful thinking.

The plaza has its share of problems, but the streetcar has the potential to really reshape what it could be.

Hopefully it helps with some additional foot traffic, but it won’t fix the fundamental, root issue being caused by the owner/operator.

This idea that it’s going to be transformed or reshaped with a trolley stop is major wishful thinking.

[earthling]

Agree, the fundamental issues likely can only be resolved with a different strong owner. The existing two owners approaching bankruptcy territory likely can't elevate the Plaza where it should be heading. Even if they don't file bankruptcy, they'll be weak for a long time.

The streetcar will help though. When the extension is completed, a free fare streetcar will essentially tie together the RCP corridor as one big downtown in the eyes of many visitors including weekend suburban visitors. Park once most anywhere along the line and visit the entire stretch as a day trip, using essentially a free horizontal elevator between districts.

[Highlander]

Care to revisit this statement?

Some on here have actually been following the slow and steady destruction of this once proud civic landmark into the almost unrecognizable state that it is today.

Some apartments an A-Loft and an escape room isn’t going to fix this mess and the rest on your list is simply wishful thinking.

The plaza has its share of problems, but the streetcar has the potential to really reshape what it could be.

Hopefully it helps with some additional foot traffic, but it won’t fix the fundamental, root issue being caused by the owner/operator.

This idea that it’s going to be transformed or reshaped with a trolley stop is major wishful thinking.

Agreed. Not really sure what the streetcar will bring to the Plaza but I am not sure it will be the panacea for all the Plaza's issues. It will (or at least has the potential to) bring tourists who are attending events downtown and would otherwise not have left downtown while in KC. But these same tourists haven't been able to keep businesses open in the P&L District so I don't see them being that big of a boon to the Plaza.

The wealth along the street car corridor should increase a little with TOD along the route but it probably will not be much more than a block or two deep. The people already living downtown and in the Crossroads will have better access to the Plaza but, again, retail has struggled in those areas (especially inside the loop - note lack of an urban Target or similar store) so not sure what impact that will have on the Plaza. Plus any business going to the plaza from those residents will detract from downtown. There's only so much wealth in KC's urban core. The best way for public transportation to help the Plaza would be to have it run out into the burbs to bring in a critical mass of people who can afford to shop there. Works great in Denver. Besides that, gentrifying the urban core is the only thing that will bring the Plaza back to being a truly distinct shopping area in KC. All the new apartments being built on the Plaza are certainly going to help and the streetcar as it is will help but it won't solve the Plaza's problems.

[earthling]

It will (or at least has the potential to) bring tourists who are attending events downtown and would otherwise not have left downtown while in KC. But these same tourists haven't been able to keep businesses open in the P&L District so I don't see them being that big of a boon to the Plaza.

Downtown's retail vacancy overall has been much lower/better than P&L over the years. So the problem is probably P&L's approach, being too selective despite P&L incentives that other downtown retail spots haven't received. The Plaza had about 15% vacancy last report I've seen, compared to below 4% for urban corridor. It's likely mostly due to the weak owners approaching bankruptcy territory. The Plaza needs a financially healthier owner that is geared more towards mixed-urban use, not a generic mall operator.

[AlkaliAxel]

I didn’t respond to him because the dude is basically a major concern troll who pops in once a month, shits on KC all over the place, and then leaves for another month. But if we’re actually gonna dignify his response…

Of the course the new streetcar stop helps. For starters, it’s gonna increase the amount of residents who will want to live around that transit station. I chose to move to the Plaza over downtown this Spring despite it not having streetcar access- can you imagine how many more will move to Plaza when it actually does?

It also makes it so that a visitor doesn’t have to decide what pocket in KC you want to go to visit anymore- downtown or Plaza. Having to get in your car & drive and find parking is a barrier. You’re removing that barrier. So if you’re out for the weekend and you’re choose whether to go to downtown or Plaza- you can do both. That’s automatically gonna boost traffic to the Plaza now from visitors.

[Highlander]

It will (or at least has the potential to) bring tourists who are attending events downtown and would otherwise not have left downtown while in KC. But these same tourists haven't been able to keep businesses open in the P&L District so I don't see them being that big of a boon to the Plaza.

Downtown's retail vacancy overall has been much lower/better than P&L over the years. So the problem is probably P&L's approach, being too selective despite P&L incentives that other downtown retail spots haven't received. The Plaza had about 15% vacancy last report I've seen, compared to below 4% for urban corridor. It's likely mostly due to the weak owners approaching bankruptcy territory. The Plaza needs a financially healthier owner that is geared more towards mixed-urban use, not a generic mall operator.

No doubt the ownership issue is the weak link for the Plaza. But that may or may not change in the foreseeable future; there's no present indication that it will happen short of bankruptcy which I'm not sure would be a good thing for the area. 15% vacancy on the plaza is pretty significant. It's a big retail center so 15% is going to take a lot of activity to infill, especially if we want that be quality infill. I'm not saying the streetcar won't help the plaza, I just don't think its going to be the major uplift that others here do. For that to happen, the people who move in along the route need to be new to the core, not just recycling people already in the urban core. The population has to have net growth. The wealth of the core needs net growth. Ultimately for that to happen, KC's core needs to attract more business and retain it. I love the Plaza. Although I do not live in the urban core, I shop and dine there preferentially.

I will agree with you on one thing from the past, I've driven by the tennis courts on several occasions recently - on nice days even - almost always empty. Not a single player. If that's going to be the case, I would agree that they need to go.

[earthling]

^And Plaza vacancy might be over 20% now.

I follow what you mean about the streetcar but overall it should improve chances of increasing foot traffic. And there are residential projects in the works along the line that will all have easier access to Plaza w/out a car, growth is a given. If you look at downtown streetcar ridership numbers, weekends are often double weekday, likely many coming in from the burbs/region. That weekend base will likely 'daytrip' many sites along streetcar line extension, including Plaza.

As far as Plaza tennis courts, they could still put in a multi-use recreational/library building with indoor and rooftop tennis courts while serving a broader purpose and a nice entry gateway from Plaza streetcar stop to Plaza. A small format urban Target within the recreational building would work well in this location too, better than the Nordstrom spot.

[beautyfromashes]

My guess, is if the owners are in financial trouble and looking to sell the Plaza, directly after the launch of the extension would be the perfect time. They could sell the property as having the potential for better return, even if it wouldn't be realized in the beginning.

[earthling]

Agree. Am also thinking of selling a property near streetcar line around that time.

[AlkaliAxel]

A small format urban Target within the recreational building would work

We need that downtown more than Plaza

[earthling]

Agree downtown better choice for first location but if they decide with Plaza, the streetcar stop is better than other side of Plaza.

[earthling]

^Even better technically just off Plaza at the streetcar stop, even better so if starting first small format location downtown and a second small format location at Plaza streetcar stop. The Nordstrom spot is the least ideal location, furthest from streetcar stop. A full size store would not be a good format, would come across as an anchor mall store, which isn't a good image for Plaza.

[msmith011]

Anyone know what's happening at the Time West Building?

Victoria's Secret closed, Bath & Body Works relocated, a construction.com filing shows Express is up to something, and Compass KC shows plans for shell improvements to the building. It's a ton of square footage.

[MidtownCat]

Anyone know what's happening at the Time West Building?

Victoria's Secret closed, Bath & Body Works relocated, a construction.com filing shows Express is up to something, and Compass KC shows plans for shell improvements to the building. It's a ton of square footage.

My guess is axe throwing, payday loans, or a seasonal costume shop.

[MidtownCat]

I didn’t respond to him because the dude is basically a major concern troll who pops in once a month, shits on KC all over the place, and then leaves for another month. But if we’re actually gonna dignify his response…

Of the course the new streetcar stop helps. For starters, it’s gonna increase the amount of residents who will want to live around that transit station. I chose to move to the Plaza over downtown this Spring despite it not having streetcar access- can you imagine how many more will move to Plaza when it actually does?

It also makes it so that a visitor doesn’t have to decide what pocket in KC you want to go to visit anymore- downtown or Plaza. Having to get in your car & drive and find parking is a barrier. You’re removing that barrier. So if you’re out for the weekend and you’re choose whether to go to downtown or Plaza- you can do both. That’s automatically gonna boost traffic to the Plaza now from visitors.

Welcome to the Plaza, guy.

Enjoy your first apartment out of college. I’ve lived and worked here for 20 years.

With Starbucks hitting the road, we’re now approaching close to 20% vacancy, but keep pretending that the problems are all a big exaggeration and the “narrative is BS”.

The idea that a trolley stop (which has done nothing for P&L), an A-Loft, and some pie in the sky ideas that haven’t surfaced for three decades to redevelop the tennis courts are all going to magically fix the root problems are comical at best.

Haha, this dude.

[Anthony_Hugo98]

…The idea that a trolley stop…

How to tell everyone to not take your statements seriously…without telling everyone to not take your statements seriously.