Re: Capping the Loop
Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:06 pm
why not just fill the trench with dirt and be done with it? the real problem is the freeway slicing up neighborhoods, not the fact that we need more park space.
That would be a problem. Downtown is the effective meeting place of two transcontinental routes. Should it have been done originally, no. But there needs to be an alternative provided if it's removed. To move i70, 435 south is over capacity, we don't want any more multimillion projects in Joco and all the i70 traffic helping sprawl there. Move to 435 north in Clayco and you just end up with sprawl there.DaveKCMO wrote:why not just fill the trench with dirt and be done with it? the real problem is the freeway slicing up neighborhoods, not the fact that we need more park space.
You wouldn't be changing anything other than enlarging the loop so that the western edge is now in the west bottoms. Same functionality while restoring the natural cohesiveness of the west-side neighborhood to the Crossroads.flyingember wrote:That would be a problem. Downtown is the effective meeting place of two transcontinental routes. Should it have been done originally, no. But there needs to be an alternative provided if it's removed. To move i70, 435 south is over capacity, we don't want any more multimillion projects in Joco and all the i70 traffic helping sprawl there. Move to 435 north in Clayco and you just end up with sprawl there.DaveKCMO wrote:why not just fill the trench with dirt and be done with it? the real problem is the freeway slicing up neighborhoods, not the fact that we need more park space.
It's sad, but a major highway will loop downtown for many decades. If downtown highways had been local access service and the major route was away from downtown it would be different story.
building things that can be occupied. now there's a plan i could support!pash wrote:Construction has begun on the Capital Crossing project in DC: http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local ... 34131.html
The project will cap I-395 between E Street & Mass Ave and 2nd & 3rd Streets NW, creating three new city blocks adjacent to the campus of Georgetown Law, just west of Union Station. The developers are building three million square feet of office and retail space in several buildings over the freeway.
i love the "park" in the east loop sandwiched between the freeway and two full city blocks of parking. success!moderne wrote:Could have been even worse: http://www.linecreekloudmouth.com/files ... lan-22.pdf
that plan inspired me to try and redesign the loop. I also posted this on the transportation forummoderne wrote:Could have been even worse: http://www.linecreekloudmouth.com/files ... lan-22.pdf
DaveKCMO wrote:just remove the north loop and maybe turn it into a parkway (or a waterway!).
the north loop is redundant and all of the ramps are accident hot spots. rejoin the neighborhoods!
You're not saying that parks don't add value / tax base, are you?DaveKCMO wrote:i would be very cautious about adding copious amounts of green space without a conservancy to maintain it. city needs things that add value and tax base.
Of course...considering how many abatements and TIFs there are downtown...this significantly limits the ability of the City to capture that value...DaveKCMO wrote:i would be very cautious about adding copious amounts of green space without a conservancy to maintain it. city needs things that add value and tax base.
A real stretch of an argument. I'm taking that as a request to be educated.Worn Copy wrote:Of course...considering how many abatements and TIFs there are downtown...this significantly limits the ability of the City to capture that value...DaveKCMO wrote:i would be very cautious about adding copious amounts of green space without a conservancy to maintain it. city needs things that add value and tax base.
I'm not making the argument you think I'm making. I'm not arguing against the use of abatements or TIFs (although I do have issues with how they are being used in KC vs best practice / how they're used elsewhere, but that is a separate issue).loftguy wrote:A real stretch of an argument. I'm taking that as a request to be educated.Worn Copy wrote:Of course...considering how many abatements and TIFs there are downtown...this significantly limits the ability of the City to capture that value...DaveKCMO wrote:i would be very cautious about adding copious amounts of green space without a conservancy to maintain it. city needs things that add value and tax base.
Past abatements have zero impact on future developments and most all TIF's have limits established on their breadth and lifetime.
Additionally, the perception that abatements and TIF's have held back revenues is false. Abatement has mostly been used to allow reuse of buildings that could very well have ended up demo'd, removing them from the tax rolls and leaving us with minimal taxes at empty or parking lot values, along with the immense cultural loss that occurs as buildings disappear. With abatement, the properties have mostly continued at their historic tax levels and now many of them have rolled off the abatement period and contributing full taxes into the future.
More completely, the use of abatement has provided for continued use of real estate in ways that generate city earnings taxes, sales tax revenues and a generally stimulated community and economy.
I'm open and can agree, that there are examples of misuse of abatement and TIF, over the years. However, a complete retrospective view allows ample evidence that these 'tools' have more than rewarded our city/county/library/school district/county.
Other cities have trenches downtown. Vine Street Expressway and a section of I-95 in Phily. Sections of the Eisenhower and Stevenson in Chicago. Etc.harbinger911 wrote:Doing away with or capping the north loop is 10 million times more important than doing one single thing to the south loop.
At least the south loop is buried and somewhat limited in size, while the north loop is simply a wasteland of sprawled destruction.
The north loop is easily the worst designed and most egregious destruction of urban fabric in all (100%) of the known universe.
There is nothing more ugly, more unsafe, and more wasteful than the 20 sq blocks of urban land decimated by this monstrosity.
I dare anyone to show me a more hideous, wasteful and unsafe design anywhere on planet earth.
The person(s) responsible for this (including any KCMO politicians or engineers) should be forced to live under one of it's bridges for the rest of their life.
Look at any other major city in the country that built freeways through their downtowns - they ALL used elevated highways.
KC DID NOT - KC basically went "cheap" and dug huge sprawled trenches on the SW, east and north sides of the loop.
Elevating the highway is more expensive, but it keeps the street grid and building mostly intact.
KC's "trenched" freeways built a "moat" around downtown, basically cutting off every surrounding neighborhood and completely destroying the street grid.
Only the south loop was spared.
With the addition of 670 into Kansas the north loop is not needed. It wasn't needed when they built it!
Bulldoze the entire thing and rebuild the grid and infrastructure - they will come.