Plaza move-ins (ongoing)

[normalthings]

I'm okay with what the Plaza is as long as we don't have grocers. As long as it's retail, I think it's all good and it still maintains it's majestic appeal.

Why don't we just build only apartment there on that spot and just not worry about any new stores?

I can't stress this enough, we just *cannot* have a Target in that location- it will destroy downtown. Honestly the city or someone with authority needs to block it. It'll be too close to downtown for them to build a real urban Target, and simultaneously nobody downtown will ever get to use it. It's literally the worst scenario possible.

Why not grocers? Sun Fresh sucks and Whole Paycheck is way overpriced. I usually end up spending my money in Kansas at the neighborhood market. A Target with groceries on the plaza would be badass.

I guess groceries = probably driving a car unless immediately next to a rail station or next to your apartment.

[TheSmokinPun]

Sun Fresh hasn't sucked for a while now.

[AlkaliAxel]

I'm okay with what the Plaza is as long as we don't have grocers. As long as it's retail, I think it's all good and it still maintains it's majestic appeal.

Why don't we just build only apartment there on that spot and just not worry about any new stores?

I can't stress this enough, we just *cannot* have a Target in that location- it will destroy downtown. Honestly the city or someone with authority needs to block it. It'll be too close to downtown for them to build a real urban Target, and simultaneously nobody downtown will ever get to use it. It's literally the worst scenario possible.

Why not grocers? Sun Fresh sucks and Whole Paycheck is way overpriced. I usually end up spending my money in Kansas at the neighborhood market. A Target with groceries on the plaza would be badass.

I get what you're saying. If they do a Target, I just want them to have the exterior design be atleast somewhat resembling the surrounding Plaza area.

I'm not sure if that's a requirement for new Plaza development, but it should be. It's almost sacrilegious for that not to be mandated.

[alejandro46]

I feel like Restoration Hardware would be a good fit for the space. Target is fine as well but agreed, seems pretty close to Ward Parkway Target. Just really sucks after all that work done to have them pull the plug like this. Hopefully they can get a tenant lined up fast, last thing we need is a big vacant building on the Plaza.

[AlkaliAxel]

Just to make sure we don’t get too ahead of ourselves here…the Nordstrom hasn’t actually pulled the plug yet right?

[beautyfromashes]

A Crate & Barrel would be good. Dean & Deluca, Williams Sonoma, Macy's or some other higher end retail.

[mgsports]

Aldi or Ramey Price Cutter or Big Lots or Gerbes or Deibergs or so on do good in Downtown

[MidtownCat]

Seems very close to the Ward Parkway store, but idk. I'm worried for what the Plaza is becoming.

We should have started worrying about ten years ago.

Incredibly sad to see what it has become. It’s honestly shocking.

[earthling]

^Was expecting a downward turn when Taubman took over Plaza, a mostly generic mall operator. Highwoods did an OK job with upgrading Plaza (like bricking the sidewalks, adding some buildings) and maintaining some decent stores but they wanted to trend toward more office and ignored residential as well. Time for broader multi-use or sell off by the block with a Plaza biz association that engages neighborhood.

[shinatoo]

Historically the Plaza has had grocery stores and pharmacies. As evidenced by all of the history of the plaza, there is room for neighborhood amenities and high-end retail. And, I would say, the decline of the plaza began when they began removing the neighborhood amenities.

[dukuboy1]

Geez, really hope this is not true. A Target on the Plaza would be a waste, especially with the one on Ward Parkway being fairly close. But the main reason anyone comes to the plaza is to do a little more "high end shopping". The Plaza has always been that type of destination. But with things like Saks 5th Ave long since gone along with others there has been a bit of a void. Glad Halls came back. But honestly a Target brings no prestige at all and would lead to a less than upscale "slums" part of the Plaza. I really hope it is not true. But if so I hope they commit back to Oak Park Mall. It is nice to have a high end retailer in town to be able to go to get what you want/need.

Gosh what a blow to the Plaza if it happens. Really bums me out

[MidtownCat]

I think the freak out over this potential Target “taking away from Downtown” is unfounded. You could still get another, smaller Target Downtown regardless if the Plaza one happens. KC is growing and can support more retail, big and small. Simply saying a Target needs to be blocked for a host of possibilities is how desirability of neighborhoods is reduced. The arguments become no better than NIMBYs opposing new housing, office space or hotels.

Retailers choose where they go based on a number of factors, and if Target believes the Plaza is a great opportunity right now, then they’ll pursue it. In regards to the Ward location, it’s 5.5 miles away from the Plaza. And the one in Mission Kansas is 5.1 miles away. So they’re close to the Plaza, but not too close. And when you can put a Target in an area with lots of apartments, condos, homes, hotel rooms and office space, why wouldn’t you? It helps with the walkability factor and would keep a portion of the Plaza activated for years to come far better than a Nordstrom would.

If you put a smaller, refined Target in downtown near the Power and Light District, it would be roughly 5 miles away from the Plaza, the precedent is there already. Larger cities have them much closer to each other, so why can’t KC? The point I’m making is don’t freak out about a Plaza Target location since it’s still entirely possible that a true urban Target could go in the Downtown area in the future because the factors I mentioned earlier are the same downtown as they are in the Plaza.

And the way growth is happening, and will continue to happen, I’d imagine the KC Downtown market can support a Target as much as the Plaza and so on.

A big part of the Plaza’s steady downfall over the past decade has been CONTINUALLY settling for and accepting mediocrity, which has significantly lowered its overall profile as our city’s premier district and has been a contributing factor in the the mass desertion to places like Town Center in Leawood. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever that a Crate & Barrel, Williams Sonoma, Restoration Hardware, Nordstrom should not be on the Plaza. None.

Settling for a Target would be just another example. It’s the equivalent of replacing Tiffany with a Claire’s and you all know it.

Not surprising that the typical rationalization that a Target on the Plaza wouldn’t be so bad, though. It’s the natural course of action that has played out time and again for the better part of 10 years+ as we have watched the Plaza devolve into the sad state that it is today.

[dukuboy1]

Historically the Plaza has had grocery stores and pharmacies. As evidenced by all of the history of the plaza, there is room for neighborhood amenities and high-end retail. And, I would say, the decline of the plaza began when they began removing the neighborhood amenities.

the neighborhood amenities moved South to Brookside, and Ward Parkway Center, located in the primarily residential neighborhoods. The Plaza moved to a retail, dining area of town, with businesses, hotels, and apartments/condos and such. That move made it more high end for sure.

I know the Commerce Bank branch was a grocery store up until the 1950's early 60's I believe. But given what else is around the Plaza being the higher end area is a very good thing for the city. It was a unique area that people know and it was because of the higher end transformation it became what it is today. Otherwise it was a just a quirky neighborhood that had Spanish architecture and retail shopping district that was something different than the Landing and what Westport offered back in the day.

[Highlander]

Just to make sure we don’t get too ahead of ourselves here…the Nordstrom hasn’t actually pulled the plug yet right?

I heard the same rumor around Thanksgiving. If 2023 is the target for opening, they would need to be started on construction very soon I would think so we will find out soon enough. A Target would not be horrible at that site (much prefer a Nordstrom's) but there are other places on the Plaza that could accommodate either a Nordstrom's or a Target - the space is available to do both (e.g., former Halls site). It's crazy how long some of the space on the Plaza is remaining vacant. The former Houston's restaurant location is still unoccupied.

[dukuboy1]

I think the freak out over this potential Target “taking away from Downtown” is unfounded. You could still get another, smaller Target Downtown regardless if the Plaza one happens. KC is growing and can support more retail, big and small. Simply saying a Target needs to be blocked for a host of possibilities is how desirability of neighborhoods is reduced. The arguments become no better than NIMBYs opposing new housing, office space or hotels.

Retailers choose where they go based on a number of factors, and if Target believes the Plaza is a great opportunity right now, then they’ll pursue it. In regards to the Ward location, it’s 5.5 miles away from the Plaza. And the one in Mission Kansas is 5.1 miles away. So they’re close to the Plaza, but not too close. And when you can put a Target in an area with lots of apartments, condos, homes, hotel rooms and office space, why wouldn’t you? It helps with the walkability factor and would keep a portion of the Plaza activated for years to come far better than a Nordstrom would.

If you put a smaller, refined Target in downtown near the Power and Light District, it would be roughly 5 miles away from the Plaza, the precedent is there already. Larger cities have them much closer to each other, so why can’t KC? The point I’m making is don’t freak out about a Plaza Target location since it’s still entirely possible that a true urban Target could go in the Downtown area in the future because the factors I mentioned earlier are the same downtown as they are in the Plaza.

And the way growth is happening, and will continue to happen, I’d imagine the KC Downtown market can support a Target as much as the Plaza and so on.

A big part of the Plaza’s steady downfall over the past decade has been CONTINUALLY settling for and accepting mediocrity, which has significantly lowered its overall profile as our city’s premier district and has been a contributing factor in the the mass desertion to places like Town Center in Leawood. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever that a Crate & Barrel, Williams Sonoma, Restoration Hardware, Nordstrom should not be on the Plaza. None.

Settling for a Target would be just another example. It’s the equivalent of replacing Tiffany with a Claire’s and you all know it.

Not surprising that the typical rationalization that a Target on the Plaza wouldn’t be so bad, though. It’s the natural course of action that has played out time and again for the better part of 10 years+ as we have watched the Plaza devolve into the sad state that it is today.

agreed, settling for less gets you less in the long run no matter what. I hope that the group that owns the Plaza realizes this and will do what they can to continue to bring in high end retail and dining. Especially if they are going to want to charge the rents they want. They are charging rent as it being a high end property. However the other tenants may not agree and start to questions things like that knowing a Target is going in as an "achor store. That will cause a lot of raised eyebrows next time the want to increase rent. Regardless of what foot traffic or sales Target may generate it's not generating benefit for the whole district.

Plaza really needs to get its management going full tilt to market it as the place for high end retail. Plus a Target will do nothing to charge the already skewed perception by those who live deep in the suburbs that the Plaza is dangerous and riddled with crime. This would only add fuel to that fire, although we know this to be false and has no merit. But the people you want to come shop & dine on The Plaza have had those rumors snowballing for years

[Highlander]

Historically the Plaza has had grocery stores and pharmacies. As evidenced by all of the history of the plaza, there is room for neighborhood amenities and high-end retail. And, I would say, the decline of the plaza began when they began removing the neighborhood amenities.

I know the Commerce Bank branch was a grocery store up until the 1950's early 60's I believe. But given what else is around the Plaza being the higher end area is a very good thing for the city. It was a unique area that people know and it was because of the higher end transformation it became what it is today. Otherwise it was a just a quirky neighborhood that had Spanish architecture and retail shopping district that was something different than the Landing and what Westport offered back in the day.

I agree on wanting to maintain the Plaza as a high end shopping district. I think it is good for KC to do so. The biggest problem with doing so are the demographics of KC. There are a lot of upper middle class/upper class salaries living in the Plaza area but there are far more in south Johnson County. The problem for the Plaza is that the size of the upper middle class/upper class population in the area remains finite as the amount of housing added in the Plaza area has been a trickle compared to what is added in Johnson County. It's good to see some gentrification in the North and West Plaza areas but it's small in comparison to growth in south Johnson County. Not sure if the current Plaza owners have the wherewithal to turn this around.

[MidtownCat]

Just to make sure we don’t get too ahead of ourselves here…the Nordstrom hasn’t actually pulled the plug yet right?

I heard the same rumor around Thanksgiving. If 2023 is the target for opening, they would need to be started on construction very soon I would think so we will find out soon enough. A Target would not be horrible at that site but there are other places on the Plaza that could accommodate either a Nordstrom's or a Target - the space is available to do both (e.g., former Halls site). It's crazy how long some of the space on the Plaza is remaining vacant. The former Houston's restaurant location is still unoccupied.

The vacancy rate is ridiculous.

The Nordstrom / Target site is a freaking vacant gravel lot
The movie theatre is gone - Still vacant
Houston’s gone - Vacant
Halls then Nike Store gone - Vacant
Burberry gone - Still Vacant
The two restaurants on Jefferson and Ward Parkway gone - Still vacant other than a Holiday pop-up bar
Helzberg gone - Still Vacant
Tesla showroom gone - Still Vacant
Zoom gone - Still Vacant
Tomfooleries and adjacent retailer gone - Still Vacant

I know I’m missing others, but it’s ridiculous.

[dukuboy1]

Yeah, I thought that the Plaza managers when the change was made would be better. Not good at all. RIP Plaza I guess.

As for the demographics of where the wealth is, I agree it has mainly gone South into JOCO and beyond. Still a lot of people in town go to the Plaza when they want to go upscale. Those who live at 135th and whatever choose the options around them and I guess the Strip Mall Ruth's Chris is just as good as Eddie V's, etc. Point is still a lot of people look to the Plaza as a destination in KC. But if there is nothing high end for them to go to then it will be basically dining options and that is it. It is really shame and my guess is the vacancies have more to do with the rent and leasing options being skewed to a point that is not in tune with the current market. Really need someone to manage things that will be aggressive in leasing strategies to make it worth it for a high end business to setup shop. Give them sweetheart deals for a few years. Hopefully with increase in residences and perhaps some more businesses in the area will help improve things as well for retail. But I think there has been a lot of "resting on laurels" and trying to fill things on reputation. There is a lot more competition now from other areas up and coming around town that are targeting the same demographics as you. Time for better management to start setting the rules and force everyone else to adjust. Can they do it? Maybe, but need some string private equity type of management firm that has invests looking for a tax dump to fund an aggressive turnaround, banking on profits in the long run.

[AlkaliAxel]

The Plaza is always going to be heads and tails above any other shopping because of its architecture, fountains, statues, street performers, easier walkability than places like Town Center. In a few years it’ll even have a nice streetcar station. It will always have that going for it no matter what. I don’t think the retail actually matters as much as long as it still contains some high end places and no junk ones. Places like Shake Shack draw tons of people there, and it’s a burger joint not a high end retailer.

I honestly think the things like the architecture, music, fountains, urban feel is what draws people there alot more than the retailers. Just my opinion- as long as it’s not like McDonalds and Dollar Store people will still go in droves

[FangKC]

The Plaza hasn't always been high-end. It used to have a Woolworth's discount store, a Sears, grocery store, and even gas stations.

https://kchistory.org/image/woolworths- ... fset%5D=11

https://kchistory.org/image/country-clu ... fset%5D=13

https://kchistory.org/image/plaza-stand ... fset%5D=13

And there used to be a McDonalds next to the former movie theater entrance.