KCRag Forum

chrizow wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:29 pm this could be a dumb question which has been discussed previously--but i was in downtown STL recently for work and walking around the govt/courthouse district, which is close to busch stadium. does STL illustrate how a downtown stadium could feel in KC? the two downtown stadium locations seem somewhat similar, esp. with ballpark village/P&L district, and both downtowns experienced rather dramatic declines over the decades until recently. just thinking STL could be a more apt comparison than a place like San Diego or Denver.

I would actually say Denver's is more similar to St. Louis's, and KC's would be more similar to San Diego's.

St. Louis built their ballpark village next to the ballpark. It's like a P&L. Denver did the same thing basically, they have a "P&L" next to Coors Field, it's Rockies themed, same type of deal. Their focus is more on the pure entertainment side.

The Royals aren't building a ballpark village in that sense. They seemed to be more focused on building residential, office, restaurants, etc. (like Petco in San Diego) rather than a Royals themed entertainment site like StL & the Denver have around their respective stadiums. The Royals are having P&L (several blocks away) just be...P&L, and they're not building their own version of it (AFAIK).

Also, if you comb through the 4 Royals presentations (which I did recently) they mention Petco Park about a dozen times, and mention Coors & Busch only once or twice.

TLDR; SD & KC's = office, residential, etc...STL & DEN's = entertainment

did the Padres organization itself build the office and residential? or was that development created by third-parties, outside of Padres' ownership, as a result of the baseball investment?

chrizow wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:29 pm this could be a dumb question which has been discussed previously--but i was in downtown STL recently for work and walking around the govt/courthouse district, which is close to busch stadium. does STL illustrate how a downtown stadium could feel in KC? the two downtown stadium locations seem somewhat similar, esp. with ballpark village/P&L district, and both downtowns experienced rather dramatic declines over the decades until recently. just thinking STL could be a more apt comparison than a place like San Diego or Denver.

STL's downtown is entirely dead in all areas outside of game day. KC is not like that.

I do worry East Village will be insulated from the rest of downtown but we have something STL doesn't, a destination. EV Stadium you have the destination of RM, P&L, Crossroads, Crown Center. In STL there is nothing else.

Cardinals ownership is directly invested in Ball Park Village.

normalthings wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 4:48 pm
STL's downtown is entirely dead in all areas outside of game day. KC is not like that.

I do worry East Village will be insulated from the rest of downtown but we have something STL doesn't, a destination. EV Stadium you have the destination of RM, P&L, Crossroads, Crown Center. In STL there is nothing else.

hmmmm...EV (using 1400 Holmes) is 1-2 miles from River Market and Crown Center. it is also approx 1 mile from EV to Xroads (more to freighthouse, less to a place like The Truman). i am no STL expert but they have downtown-adjacent destinations as well, with bars, restaurants, and amenities - lafayette square (1.6 miles from Busch), soulard (1.7 mi), the landing (1.0 mi), and downtown west/midtown which has breweries, restos, bars, aquarium, whatever, not to mention the Arch and new riverfront park stuff very nearby. i am not sure KC's downtown is all that much different than STL's, other than maybe having a similar number of amenities in a slightly smaller area and having the Xroads which could be a bit more interesting/vibrant than the loft area of downtown STL. i am all for being a KC booster but it's not exactly apples/oranges to downtown STL.

chrizow wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 4:44 pm did the Padres organization itself build the office and residential? or was that development created by third-parties, outside of Padres' ownership, as a result of the baseball investment?

It was built by the owner's real estate group. So yes. There's a good case study you can read on how Petco came together here. Your question is detailed beginning on page 11. Funny, I hadn't realized that San Diego's site was also "East Village."

To redevelop the East Village, the MOU stipulated that the city would create a “Ballpark
District” surrounding the ballpark (Exhibit 6). The Padres (later JMI Realty) were to be “master
developers” of the Ballpark District. As part of Phase 1 of the Ballpark District redevelopment,
they were required to build:
• 150-room extended stay hotel,
• 700 additional hotel rooms, with associated parking,
• Office complexes of at least 600,000 square feet, with associated parking,
• Retail development of at least 150,000 square feet,
• Additional parking of approximately 2,238 stalls.

Edit: Formatting

good to know. would love to see that happen in EV!

1000% what normalthings says. Getting the ballpark connected west to the rest of downtown (instead of its own island) will determine whether it’s just good, or great.

Streetscape, activation, etc has to happen. I hope this is part of the giant investment package. If not, then city needs to do it. It would be a clear cut smart investment for the city.

@Dave I know it was looked at in Next Rail, but is there any talk of an E/W 12th street streetcar line into the bottoms? Obviously cost has gone up since 2013 and it was nearly $200 million then. Between this and SomeraRoad, that's 1.4 billion in private investment along that street. Taking it into Paseo West/Gates Plaza would be an impactful 2/3 miles. Seems like something worth dusting off?

https://kcstreetcar.org/wp-content/uplo ... erview.pdf

Cratedigger wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:31 pm @Dave I know it was looked at in Next Rail, but is there any talk of an E/W 12th street streetcar line into the bottoms? Obviously cost has gone up since 2013 and it was nearly $200 million then. Between this and SomeraRoad, that's 1.4 billion in private investment along that street. Taking it into Paseo West/Gates Plaza would be an impactful 2/3 miles. Seems like something worth dusting off?

https://kcstreetcar.org/wp-content/uplo ... erview.pdf

12th street is such a solid corridor for the next decade or so with development, that it seems a logical choice to expand. West Bottoms is going to be a fairly populated neighborhood within the next 5 years, and walking around WB lofts, if everyone who moves down there has a car the area will absolutely die. High(er) capacity, frequent, reliable transit to the Bottoms and EV should be a priority here, especially if the stadium is indeed coming soon.

rxlexi wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 11:54 am One interesting thing mentioned during the last listening session, with regards to financing, was the possibility of "creative federal options".

Is East Village an Opportunity Zone? Not sure where OZ investing stands in 2023 but I believe the northern portion where the old AT&T building is a QOZ.

Yes, the entire EV is in an opportunity zone.

http://edckc.s3.amazonaws.com/EDC%20Web ... _Paseo.pdf

https://edckc.com/initiatives/opportunity-zones/

Cratedigger wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:53 pmThe original Populous plans (which to be fair, could be outdated - but they look pretty similar to the renderings that are on the site!) had a pedestrian bridge extending over the highway and multiple developments in Paseo West

Where can one see these original Populous plans? I’m not familiar

Cratedigger wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:31 pm @Dave I know it was looked at in Next Rail, but is there any talk of an E/W 12th street streetcar line into the bottoms? Obviously cost has gone up since 2013 and it was nearly $200 million then. Between this and SomeraRoad, that's 1.4 billion in private investment along that street. Taking it into Paseo West/Gates Plaza would be an impactful 2/3 miles. Seems like something worth dusting off?

https://kcstreetcar.org/wp-content/uplo ... erview.pdf

I agree. I'd like to see the NorthRail routed to 12th instead of through the River Market. That would serve a new stadium well.

TheLastGentleman wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:18 pm

Cratedigger wrote: ↑Thu Feb 02, 2023 12:53 pmThe original Populous plans (which to be fair, could be outdated - but they look pretty similar to the renderings that are on the site!) had a pedestrian bridge extending over the highway and multiple developments in Paseo West

Where can one see these original Populous plans? I’m not familiar

Buddy showed me - not public unfortunately.

im2kull wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:23 pm

UMKC Roo wrote: ↑Tue Jan 31, 2023 6:10 pm

WoodDraw wrote: ↑Tue Jan 31, 2023 5:16 pm They already tried the roof once and it failed to pass.

Different era. Way different era. The Chiefs are prob the biggest team in American sports now, with the biggest star. They've given the city everything. People will back them.

You apparently were a toddler back then, so I can forgive your ignorant comment. The Chiefs were and have always been among the most popular teams in America. They have and had season ticket holders in all 50 states. Had sellouts for an astonishing long time. The Chiefs popularity had nothing to do with the rolling roof failing. Decoupling the rolling roof from the stadium renovations is why it failed. It was not explained what the pro's and cons were. All you heard was "If we build a roof we get a superbowl!". That line isn't enough for 90% of voters, as you have read.

When Mahomes took over the chiefs subreddit wasnt in the top 20 for number of subscribers of the 32 NFL team subs. Now its ranked #12.

dnweava wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 12:41 am

im2kull wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:23 pm

UMKC Roo wrote: ↑Tue Jan 31, 2023 6:10 pm

Different era. Way different era. The Chiefs are prob the biggest team in American sports now, with the biggest star. They've given the city everything. People will back them.

You apparently were a toddler back then, so I can forgive your ignorant comment. The Chiefs were and have always been among the most popular teams in America. They have and had season ticket holders in all 50 states. Had sellouts for an astonishing long time. The Chiefs popularity had nothing to do with the rolling roof failing. Decoupling the rolling roof from the stadium renovations is why it failed. It was not explained what the pro's and cons were. All you heard was "If we build a roof we get a superbowl!". That line isn't enough for 90% of voters, as you have read.

When Mahomes took over the chiefs subreddit wasnt in the top 20 for number of subscribers of the 32 NFL team subs. Now its ranked #12.

Awesome, that contributes a lot to the chiefs and mahomes and zero to sales tax.

Also, Reddit kc voters aren’t the best demographic to base voters on.

kcmiz wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:16 pm

beautyfromashes wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 4:07 pm Personally, all the social outrage about funding seems a bit tired. Putting in $1B to get a matching $1B that will generate a significant return both financially and socially in the urban core is a no-brainer.

The city isn’t in a position to pay a billion dollars for anything. The Marlins stadium in Miami is a cautionary tale for how disastrous public financing of stadiums can be. The Cardinals paid for their own stadium albeit partly with a loan from the city. St Louis should be the model. Why can’t the Royals pay for their own stadium?

Cardinals draw 40k a game and have huge corporate season ticket support which makes tickets trickle down to casual fans from already sold tickets. KC can barely draw 15k and has almost no corporate season tickets at least compared to the Cards.

FYI, I'm starting to see friends and family that live in suburban Jackson County come around a bit on a downtown stadium. I think it's the proposed surrounding development that is making a difference. I hope they can pull that off and it doesn't take 30 years to build out the area around a stadium.

GRID wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:12 am

kcmiz wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:16 pm

beautyfromashes wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 4:07 pm Personally, all the social outrage about funding seems a bit tired. Putting in $1B to get a matching $1B that will generate a significant return both financially and socially in the urban core is a no-brainer.

The city isn’t in a position to pay a billion dollars for anything. The Marlins stadium in Miami is a cautionary tale for how disastrous public financing of stadiums can be. The Cardinals paid for their own stadium albeit partly with a loan from the city. St Louis should be the model. Why can’t the Royals pay for their own stadium?

Cardinals draw 40k a game and have huge corporate season ticket support which makes tickets trickle down to casual fans from already sold tickets. KC can barely draw 15k and has almost no corporate season tickets at least compared to the Cards.

FYI, I'm starting to see friends and family that live in suburban Jackson County come around a bit on a downtown stadium. I think it's the proposed surrounding development that is making a difference. I hope they can pull that off and it doesn't take 30 years to build out the area around a stadium.

I don't see why it would take long at all for the Royals/partners to build it out. They say they're putting up $1 bil specifically for the district side of the equation, then what are they waiting for once the stadium gets its public funding? I don't see why they'd not build some along with the stadium going up. I don't see Sherman messing around on the district end. He might even care about that more than stadium itself from all indications.

Hot take I was thinking of tonight, I think one way downtown can connect the Royals district and not have it be an island -- put a Target in the ballpark district. If that happens, all downtowners will frequent the area year round and keep it active/tied in. Might even result in more growth over there.

UMKC Roo wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 4:48 am Hot take I was thinking of tonight, I think one way downtown can connect the Royals district and not have it be an island -- put a Target in the ballpark district. If that happens, all downtowners will frequent the area year round and keep it active/tied in. Might even result in more growth over there.

I mean yeah. A downtown target is the #1 requested amenity in the downtown council’s annual survey. So there’s desire for it. But it’s not a silver bullet.

Still things like that plus a grocery store (Trader Joe’s or even a Walmart Neighborhood Market), a good daycare and a Bar K type place w/ an indoor area would go a long way to helping activate the area Year round.

It also doesn’t sound like the stadium will have a roof (would probably cost too much) but KC desperately needs an indoor mid-large sized concert venue. We have a lot of 5,000 and under venues but above that it’s the sprint center and that’s it. In the summer you can add starlight and sandstone. But in the winter you’re SOL. There’s also the Ticketmaster dynamic too. Anyway, KC loses out on a lot of shows because of that gap in the market and having this area be a functioning concert venue in the winter would some problems

UMKC Roo wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 4:24 am

GRID wrote: ↑Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:12 am

kcmiz wrote: ↑Wed Feb 01, 2023 10:16 pm

The city isn’t in a position to pay a billion dollars for anything. The Marlins stadium in Miami is a cautionary tale for how disastrous public financing of stadiums can be. The Cardinals paid for their own stadium albeit partly with a loan from the city. St Louis should be the model. Why can’t the Royals pay for their own stadium?

Cardinals draw 40k a game and have huge corporate season ticket support which makes tickets trickle down to casual fans from already sold tickets. KC can barely draw 15k and has almost no corporate season tickets at least compared to the Cards.

FYI, I'm starting to see friends and family that live in suburban Jackson County come around a bit on a downtown stadium. I think it's the proposed surrounding development that is making a difference. I hope they can pull that off and it doesn't take 30 years to build out the area around a stadium.

I don't see why it would take long at all for the Royals/partners to build it out. They say they're putting up $1 bil specifically for the district side of the equation, then what are they waiting for once the stadium gets its public funding? I don't see why they'd not build some along with the stadium going up. I don't see Sherman messing around on the district end. He might even care about that more than stadium itself from all indications.

They will be waiting for it to actually be profitable to build. Sherman is presenting himself as a downtown booster here, but he is first and foremost a businessman, he's not going to dump a billion dollars into a bunch of vacant buildings. If downtown growth accelerates or if Sherman and his investors have a higher risk appetite and are more aggressive, then maybe stuff will go up more rapidly than we have seen Cordish doing with P&L, but overall, the P&L buildout is probably the gauge by which we should be setting at least our initial expectations for how fast the Royals build their district, if in fact they ever end up actually building anything.