Re: Taxes as disincentive to working harder?
Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 2:15 pm
Wallstreet and the defense industry, aka, the right wing welfare state.KC0KEK wrote: So where are the jobs?
Wallstreet and the defense industry, aka, the right wing welfare state.KC0KEK wrote: So where are the jobs?
But I thought that there were all of these shovel-ready infrastructure jobs, too. What happened to that spending?chingon wrote: Wallstreet and the defense industry, aka, the right wing welfare state.
this. yes. thank you.chingon wrote: I would actually argue something quite different, which is that there has never been any widespread support in the political class for the American working class (or the purely rhetorical "middle class" as its now so quaintly called), but rather that the advances that working people have made in this country have ALL -- as in 100% -- come from pressure-tactics employed by the organized portion of the working class. Corporatist politics is merely the latest evoltion of a system of oligarchy that is more or less a natural consequence of unchecked hierarchical governance.
In most western and northern European countries (until the modern era at least) the working class has traditionally been represented by a labor party that engaged in coalition-style governing with centrist and other leftist parties. In America, that route was foregone in hopes that an unbalanced alliance with the Democratic party would allow labor to advance its goals within the framework of the 2-party state.
That alliance has had pretty limitted success, but the biggest gains for working people, the fairest wealth distribution across the sprectrum, and -- pay attention right-wing regurgitators -- the most prosperous times for the nation as a whole, all correlate with the aftermath of vocal and disruptive periods of labor agitation. Periods that themselves normally followed cycles of wealth concentration and disrepect for working people of the sort we are currently mired in.
Not all Europeans are okay with high rates: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/05/busin ... 03880.html. Neither are some Australians: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/specia ... 6054252790.chrizow wrote: he asked his cousin to discuss why norwegians were seemingly okay with paying such high income tax rates - in this case, the woman said she pays approximately 50% in income taxes.
A half century of the right wing's overt, premeditated, malicious and intentional degradation of the ability of governments to perform their proper functions puts a bit of a kink in the system.KC0KEK wrote: But I thought that there were all of these shovel-ready infrastructure jobs, too. What happened to that spending?
re: the danes: not surprising. but there doesnt seem to be any huge opposition to it, or you would have been able to find much more recent articles containing much more broad-reaching data. but sure, i am willing to grant that nations containing millions of people will evince some diversity of opinion. likewise, you can find probably tens of millions of americans who espouse liberal ideas (whether they realize it or not).KC0KEK wrote: Not all Europeans are okay with high rates: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/05/busin ... 03880.html. Neither are some Australians: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/specia ... 6054252790.
Dude, the Herald Sun? Seriously. A Newscorp Aussie tabloid? What does the Enquirer say about taxes?KC0KEK wrote: Not all Europeans are okay with high rates: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/05/busin ... 03880.html. Neither are some Australians: http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/specia ... 6054252790.
Haven't you been on a highway the past 2 years?KC0KEK wrote: But I thought that there were all of these shovel-ready infrastructure jobs, too. What happened to that spending?
Ah, I see. Your recent travel show provides a much more accurate picture than my three-year-old NYT article. Thanks for setting me straight. It's pointless to provide you with more examples because you'll just dismiss them as being too dated or from a source you don't agree with.chrizow wrote: re: the danes: not surprising. but there doesnt seem to be any huge opposition to it, or you would have been able to find much more recent articles containing much more broad-reaching data.
Yes. Many roads are now nice and smooth. But unemployment is still high.grovester wrote: Haven't you been on a highway the past 2 years?
no, i agree completely that there are people in euro countries who do not appreciate the high taxes and strong government. i am saying that these people must be the minority, b/c there isn't any real movement i am aware of to change it.KC0KEK wrote: Ah, I see. Your recent travel show provides a much more accurate picture than my three-year-old NYT article. Thanks for setting me straight. It's pointless to provide you with more examples because you'll just dismiss them as being too dated or from a source you don't agree with.
chingon wrote: A half century of the right wing's overt, premeditated, malicious and intentional degradation of the ability of governments to perform their proper functions puts a bit of a kink in the system.
It's like shooting someone in the foot and then saying, "Look, that guy can't run fast. Why should we waste a perfectly good pair of shoes on him?"
I saw that too. What I was struck by was how Norwegians EXPECT good governance (Steve alluded that they almost revere it like a religion) and stress citizenship. Whereas I think here we almost expect bad governance and have a disengaged citizenry that can hardly be counted on to even vote. I know its a culture thing from our more libertarian independent cowboy roots, but I'm sure there is an impact when half of the political conversation is how bad government is - well you'll get bad government.chrizow wrote: this is a very simplified anecdote, but i thought it was fairly enlightening.
on a recent episode of rick steves' europe (a pretty educational travel show on public television where rick, the author of the famous travel guides, showcases a particular city or region in europe), he went to oslo. he met up with a cousin there and they went boating around one of norway's many fjords.
-PJ O'RourkeThe Democrats are the party that says government will make you smarter, taller, richer, and remove the crabgrass on your lawn. The Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it.
chrizow wrote: this is a very simplified anecdote, but i thought it was fairly enlightening.
on a recent episode of rick steves' europe (a pretty educational travel show on public television where rick, the author of the famous travel guides, showcases a particular city or region in europe), he went to oslo. he met up with a cousin there and they went boating around one of norway's many fjords.
in a rare example of rick discussing the political stance of the subject country, he brought up the famously high tax rate (on income and otherwise) in scandanavian countries like norway and explained that it is a function of the culture to believe in a strong but well-managed government. he also mentioned the very strong support and reverence for farmers and the working class (which of course was true in america until relatively recently). in exchange for their high taxes, norwegians receive world class cultural institutions, transit systems, medical care, education, etc. .
he asked his cousin to discuss why norwegians were seemingly okay with paying such high income tax rates - in this case, the woman said she pays approximately 50% in income taxes. her response was the following:
"yes, we pay a lot in taxes, but we expect much from our govt - and we receive a lot. we have free education through the university level, free excellent healthcare, and very healthy retirement benefits. so while we pay a lot from our paychecks, we are almost entirely free of the anxieties revolving around medical expenses, whether we can retire, whether we can pay for our childrens' college educations." etc.
for a huge portion of this country, concerns about paying for health care, education, retirement, etc. cause tremendous anxiety and stress. so why aren't people clamoring for a similar tax rate - and, of course, a similarly high expectation (and performance) from govt? i for one would gladly pay a 50% tax rate to have free education through the graduate school level, free medical care, retirement benefits, etc. obviously the welathy would have a problem with this, b/c they can afford all those things with the current tax rate, but the lion's share of americans would vastly benefit from this - with the added benefit that even with the higher tax rate they would be much more free to pursue interests, spend time with family, etc. why aren't people demanding this? if it's just that people think "govt is evil," that is just retarded.
obviously it's a bit more complex than this, but i thought that the norwegian woman's rather casual insight revealed a very profound truth.
See my response to Chrizow. Norway is too unique to be a model for any country with a population the size of the US. 4.5 Million people and the world's biggest exporter of hydroelectric power, 6th biggest exporter of oil, 3rd biggest of gas. And they've managed all that wealth exceptionally well. Norwegians are taxed heavily but they get a lot in return. If they were still dependent on herring, I doubt if the benefits would be so great but oil wealth does a lot for them such as funding universities, public transportation and infrastructure, public health care (but like the UK, private medical insurance is a growing industry in Norway) and probably most importantly, pensions (although I don't think they kick in until 67). They are also encourage to spend because large bank accounts are taxed on the principal which keeps the money flowing. Cars are hugely expensive, again due to taxes, but most families manage to afford one. Alcohol prices are outrageous due to taxes (11$ per beer) but drunk driving is non existent; people just don't drink as much even though the bars are packed on Saturday nights.phuqueue wrote: Highlander actually lived in Norway so I'm sure he has some particularly worthwhile insight into common attitudes on taxation in Scandinavia and throughout Europe if he's reading this thread, but I've spent several months a year here for the past few years and can say for my part I've never, not a single time, heard anybody complain about their taxes. I have encountered lots of Europeans from lots of different countries who are completely bewildered by our health care system, the cost of education, the Tea Party in general, etc etc etc (and also by lots of social issues, like the death penalty, hostility toward gay marriage, etc, but that's not really for this thread).
Great input, as is usual Highlander.Highlander wrote:
We've squandered our opportunities to do that.
Yeah, I should probably clarify I've never even been to Norway itself (or the UK, for that matter), much less spent significant time there, so I can't really speak any more intelligently about the specifically Norwegian perspective than chrizow was able to, but the anecdote he told more or less reflects the experiences I've had with people from various other European countries. I don't think anybody really likes paying taxes, so it's not surprising that people will complain from time to time, but I haven't personally encountered it (granted, in far less time here than you've spent). Usually when Europeans try to engage me in socioeconomic/political discussion, it's out of some morbid fascination with how backwards the US seems to them. It basically becomes an interview, they want to hear as much about it as I'm willing to tell, but it's just because it's so different from what they know. They seem to be pretty content with what they've got, even if they don't have it quite as nice as Norway does (eg, most Europeans still have to pay for school, albeit a fraction of what we pay in the US). That's my impression, anyway.Highlander wrote: See my response to Chrizow. Norway is too unique to be a model for any country with a population the size of the US. 4.5 Million people and the world's biggest exporter of hydroelectric power, 6th biggest exporter of oil, 3rd biggest of gas. And they've managed all that wealth exceptionally well. Norwegians are taxed heavily but they get a lot in return. If they were still dependent on herring, I doubt if the benefits would be so great but oil wealth does a lot for them such as funding universities, public transportation and infrastructure, public health care (but like the UK, private medical insurance is a growing industry in Norway) and probably most importantly, pensions (although I don't think they kick in until 67). They are also encourage to spend because large bank accounts are taxed on the principal which keeps the money flowing. Cars are hugely expensive, again due to taxes, but most families manage to afford one. Alcohol prices are outrageous due to taxes (11$ per beer) but drunk driving is non existent; people just don't drink as much even though the bars are packed on Saturday nights.
People do complain about taxes though. It's not a preoccupation like the US but most Norwegians will privately tell you they pay too much in taxes for their own taste...but they will never do anything about it, it just isn't part of their culture (although surprisingly, I found the Brits to complain bitterly about taxes). Norwegians have way more trust in their government than Americans have (again it's only 4.5 million people) and they are far more monocultural than we are (immigrants are there and, obviously, there is a backlash, but I found it remarkable how "Norwegian" the immigrants could become).