Is the P&L District underwhelming? 100% serious question

[KCPowercat]

I'm done. To simply blow off what has been accomplished in an urban environment (not quite as easy as a strip mall in a greenfield) and given residents amenities like the grocery store is absolutely insane to me. People love to hate the p&l. Great. Mission accomplished.

[chrizow]

People love to hate the p&l.

actually no.  it kills me to "hate" the p+l.  it does so because it just emphasizes how sad and pathetic downtown KC had become - so pathetic that we actually thought a canned entertainment district could restore the heart of a place.  it's also sad b/c i really do want to like the P+L, and i want it to bring revenue to a decaying city so maybe some of the actual neighborhoods in town could be improved and residents served better. 

[trailerkid]

I am not at all saying the restaurants are overall great....but I also am not ready to say they will never be great.

The bonds aren't being covered....everybody freak. Let's ignore the massive overhaul of 9 blocks of infrastructure and assets....the bonds are falling short a couple years....all is lost.

you think this fact is lost on everyone? this isn't like Hallmark coming in and dumping a bunch of money on surface parking lots and me bitching about it. the city paid a shit-ton of money to get this thing off the ground-- is still paying it-- and P&L is still underperforming and underwhelming as a whole.

i would still be 100% for this development to happen again, but Cordish should've been partnered with a developer capable of landing better restaurants and retail.

[KC-wildcat]

so pathetic that we actually thought a canned entertainment district could restore the heart of a place. 

Do you truly believe that this "canned entertainment district" is NOT CURRENTLY restoring the heart of the CBD?


Where's loftguy?  


We can all disagree on whether P&L is meeting its potential.  But, I think we can all agree the CBD will only thrive if more people begin moving downtown.  So, I think the real question is whether P&L is bringing more people downtown.  

Thoughts?  

[chrizow]

i would still be 100% for this development to happen again, but Cordish should've been partnered with a developer capable of landing better restaurants and retail.

i'd be curious to know the financial health of all the P+L tenants.  i bet it's pretty darn sad.  and quite a few of them are bankrolled by cordish.  raglan road?  that place is like 10,000 square feet!

[KC-wildcat]

i would still be 100% for this development to happen again, but Cordish should've been partnered with a developer capable of landing better restaurants and retail.

The USA is currently experiencing the greatest economic "recession" since the Great Depression.  You may have read about it in the paper.  Or on the internets.  Or maybe you've heard something about unemployment rates.  I digress.  

Do you think this recession has anything to do with slow retail?  

[KCPowercat]

Tk...Define shit ton of money...let's see the figures you are working with.

Chriz...sorry but I'm not buying that you really want to like it. Just based on your comments from day one. It has restored a heart to this metro. Case in point.  12000 people on a Saturday afternoon gathered to watch a world cup game. Where was this gathering in years past?  What neighborhood? 

This place was doomed by some from the get go. As a downtown resident it has increased my quality of life with amenities and created demand for downtown....that's what it was supposed to do.

[LenexatoKCMO]

People love to hate the p&l.

That's the problem.  Outside of a certain 21-30 yr old demographic Cordish has delivered a development that just doesn't appeal to a lot of people.  

[KC-wildcat]

Quick follow up...

As the USA emerges from this recession, do you think it's possible that the P&L may be better situated to lure in quality retail?

[LenexatoKCMO]

The USA is currently experiencing the greatest economic "recession" since the Great Depression.  You may have read about it in the paper.  Or on the internets.  Or maybe you've heard something about unemployment rates.  I digress.  

Do you think this recession has anything to do with slow retail?  

They fucked up the retail leasing long before the recesion.  Weak sauce excuse. 

[KCPowercat]

Grocery store, amc, bristol, 801, makers mark, johnnys, garland road, saucer....these are just geared to 20 year olds? 

Not that it would be a bad idea to just market to that demographic with more disposable income....as the older ones move off, buy houses in waldo and turn their noses up to the p&l.

[chrizow]

Chriz...sorry but I'm not buying that you really want to like it. Just based on your comments from day one. It has restored a heart to this metro. Case in point.  12000 people on a Saturday afternoon gathered to watch a world cup game. Where was this gathering in years past?  What neighborhood? 

like i said, the Living Room and bar configuration does afford a unique nightlife and gathering amenity.  is it a large step in restoring downtown KC to its former glory?  not in my opinion.  we used to have a working, breathing, 24-hr city down there.  now we rely on Cordish or AEG to bring people downtown for MMA matches, radio-station concerts, or sports-related gatherings.  hey, that's great, and a nice aspect to have in a holistic downtown environment, but it's not the heart of the city, and never will be, no matter what people from tulsa say about it.

[KCPowercat]

Lenexa believe because they didn't fill one block fast enough, the whole development wasn't a good idea.

[KC-wildcat]

They fucked up the retail leasing long before the recesion.  Weak sauce excuse. 

Please explain.  

[kcjak]

I'm done. To simply blow off what has been accomplished in an urban environment (not quite as easy as a strip mall in a greenfield) and given residents amenities like the grocery store is absolutely insane to me. People love to hate the p&l. Great. Mission accomplished.

I'm with you -sometimes I don't even bother finishing what I start to type because of the single-mindedness on here some times.  The only way the P&L would be a success to some people on here is if every store front was a Flying Saucer and they outlawed young people trying to get drunk and have fun.  It sucks to not be a target demographic.

And to think that options won't improve with time is idiotic - a lot of established businesses want to see demographics in an unproven marketplace over a sustained period of time before spending hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars to open up some place.

I used to love looking at these postings, but over the years too many people have turned into bitter, complaining, negative, arm-chair quarterbacks who think they have better answers to the metro's problems than anyone else.

[KCPowercat]

Chriz....its a beginning, not an end. Also not the only focus.

[KC-wildcat]

like i said, the Living Room and bar configuration does afford a unique nightlife and gathering amenity.  is it a large step in restoring downtown KC to its former glory?  not in my opinion.  we used to have a working, breathing, 24-hr city down there.  now we rely on Cordish or AEG to bring people downtown for MMA matches, radio-station concerts, or sports-related gatherings.  hey, that's great, and a nice aspect to have in a holistic downtown environment, but it's not the heart of the city, and never will be, no matter what people from tulsa say about it.

IMO, a massive subsidized overhaul is the fastest, most direct route to reversing 50 years of "white flight."  DT stopped being a "24-hr city" years before I was even born.  And I was born in the early 80s.  DT wasn't struggling.  DT was dead.  Cardiac Arrest.  

Just curious, what would have been your solution?  

[LenexatoKCMO]

like i said, the Living Room and bar configuration does afford a unique nightlife and gathering amenity.  is it a large step in restoring downtown KC to its former glory?  not in my opinion.  we used to have a working, breathing, 24-hr city down there.  now we rely on Cordish or AEG to bring people downtown for MMA matches, radio-station concerts, or sports-related gatherings.  hey, that's great, and a nice aspect to have in a holistic downtown environment, but it's not the heart of the city, and never will be, no matter what people from tulsa say about it.

Exactly - and by only succeeding in this one use, they have set up a situation where the district only gets traffic thu-sat late night and durring those special events.  Any other time and they have given folks very little reason to be there.  

Grocery store, amc, bristol, 801, makers mark, johnnys, garland road, saucer....these are just geared to 20 year olds?  

They have clearly tried to appeal to other demos, but I would posit that they have very clearly failed to win them over - The places aimed at the boomers, bice, 801, makers, bristol, peachtree, Ragland - are often the deadest of the bunch - Bristol seems to be the one place boomers consistently are receptive to coming down to.  They clearly failed to strike the right notes for this crowd.  

[mean]

I'm done. To simply blow off what has been accomplished in an urban environment (not quite as easy as a strip mall in a greenfield) and given residents amenities like the grocery store is absolutely insane to me. People love to hate the p&l. Great. Mission accomplished.

Nobody's blowing it off, I don't think, just saying it hasn't really done and probably won't ever really do what some of us hoped it would. I'll happily give them the nightlife mall and the Midland and AMC as the entertainment part of "world class dining and entertainment" but I don't think Famous Dave's, Chipotle, Gordon Biersch, Maker's Mark, Flying Saucer, and Bristol make for world class anything. They're all good things to have, and I'm glad they're there, it's just a little disappointing.

We can all disagree on whether P&L is meeting its potential.  But, I think we can all agree the CBD will only thrive if more people begin moving downtown.  So, I think the real question is whether P&L is bringing more people downtown.  

Obviously it is bringing more people downtown, and that's commendable. It has changed the perception of downtown KC among a certain subset of folks not only in the suburbs but also other regional cities, and that is an important step. Ultimately I just wish that the dining and residential and retail parts of the world-class entertainment, dining, residential and retail development had delivered. Or had delivered faster.

IMO, a massive subsidized overhaul is the fastest, most direct route to reversing 50 years of "white flight."  DT stopped being a "24-hr city" years before I was even born.  And I was born in the early 80s.  DT wasn't struggling.  DT was dead.  Cardiac Arrest.  

Just curious, what would have been your solution?  

Personally, I would have loved a world-class entertainment, dining, residential, and retail development...  :P

[LenexatoKCMO]

Please explain.  

This has been discussed ad nauseum here before - the retail block was completed just before the market slowed, but retail developments aren't meant to be leased after they are built.  If Cordish had the mustard to pull it off, those spaces should have been leased before the recession was even on the horizon.  The timeline just doesn't work for Cordish to use the "recession alibi" - their ship had sailed before that excuse became viable.