Jesus Camp. . .

[Maitre D]

Precisely. No reason for a consiousness like God to bother sending these fleshy beings to a place called hell, just because they don't worship some hippy dude who walked the earth 2,000 years ago. Sounds to me like people who believe in hell are just scared shitless of what they do not know (the unknown).

Well, I'll disagree that humans can presume to know what a "God" should or should not do.  I suppose it would be his prerogative to engulf Sodom in fire, altho I can't say I totally understand it all.


As for Hell....tough topic.  The original text uses a word called Sheol.  This was an area I believe outside the city where the people dumped their garbage and it constantly burned.  I think that is where people today get the idea you burn in hell.  But the text could mean, a place "outside the gates".

Who knows what that would infer?  Could be quite seclusion.  Could be, you're burned up at death.  Who knows.

[phna]

Was there any indication in the movie that these may be Christian Extremists running the camp? Were the camp founders and organizers vetted properly by the FBI including background checks?

[beautyfromashes]

Not questioning that. I believe in hell too (well sort of anyway)

But it is my job to keep my own nose clean, not to be messing with others.

Hmmm.  That doesn't quite jive with how I read the story of Jesus.  If we know someone is in trouble, we are responsible for them.  I think that lack of correct action is just as much sin as wrong action.

[Brodees]

As for Hell....tough topic.  The original text uses a word called Sheol.   This was an area I believe outside the city where the people dumped their garbage and it constantly burned.  I think that is where people today get the idea you burn in hell.  But the text could mean, a place "outside the gates".

I believe the garbage dump that you're referring to is Geh Ben Henome ("Gehenna") where child sacrifices supposedly took place by the polytheists/idolaters.  Sheol is the Hewbrew Bible's account of the eternal "place" where all go after death, regardless of how they lived.  I believe it's supposed to be a state of nothingness.  (It's quite congruent with the Buddhist/Eastern religious belief that nothing is permanent.)

I've long considered such an "existence" to be analogous to the deepest state of sleep we encounter at night (or whenever one sleeps) during which time plays no part and we temporarily exist in a state of nothingness until awakened.  If you think about it, nothing matters during that period -- neither this life nor the possibility of one hereafter -- and concentrating on that can really alleviate the anxiety/fear that is felt about the possibility that our life may indeed be finite ... And as far as "Heaven" and "Hell" are concerned, I believe those are states which we individually create for ourselves within our mortal existence.

[mean]

The religionists and secularists are as much at war in the USA as they are in Turkey, Iran, Palestine, and elsewhere. We can only hope reason will prevail in the USA, and our people will realize what was realized hundreds of years ago: government plus religion equals tyranny. Religion should remain a private matter between an individual and whatever god and doctrines s/he believes in, and should not be a guideline for public policy.

[KCtoBrooklyn]

The religionists and secularists are as much at war in the USA as they are in Turkey, Iran, Palestine, and elsewhere. We can only hope reason will prevail in the USA, and our people will realize what was realized hundreds of years ago: government plus religion equals tyranny. Religion should remain a private matter between an individual and whatever god and doctrines s/he believes in, and should not be a guideline for public policy.

Amen!

[nota]

Exactly.  Makes you wonder why the public schools do the same thing to our youth.

While I know you are making a massive effort to stir this up, I'll give it one shot.

No apples and oranges please. There is nothing similar in Jesus Camp to sex education in schools. Or maybe you can produce someone in public school who was told not to let guys touch their penis. Or to beat them up. 

[nota]

Hmmm.  That doesn't quite jive with how I read the story of Jesus.  If we know someone is in trouble, we are responsible for them.  I think that lack of correct action is just as much sin as wrong action.

If someone is in trouble, of course we should help. But me deciding someone else is in trouble because they don't have the same religious beliefs that I do doesn't qualify for "in trouble."

[beautyfromashes]

If someone is in trouble, of course we should help. But me deciding someone else is in trouble because they don't have the same religious beliefs that I do doesn't qualify for "in trouble."

Perhaps, I need to ask about the "well, sort of" to your response about whether there is a hell.  Personally, I believe there is evil and a hell and the devil, the antithesis of God.  If I believe there is a way to avoid those three then I think it is my obligation to at least present it.  If I have the knowledge to help someone find good things and don't share it, that is the ultimate sin. 

[Maitre D]

The religionists and secularists are as much at war in the USA as they are in Turkey, Iran, Palestine, and elsewhere. We can only hope reason will prevail in the USA, and our people will realize what was realized hundreds of years ago: government plus religion equals tyranny. Religion should remain a private matter between an individual and whatever god and doctrines s/he believes in, and should not be a guideline for public policy.

In other words, Christians:  I demand you suppress your beliefs and keep them out of the political arena, so my beliefs can be implemented into policy instead.

I demand it.  - Mean

[lock+load]

Perhaps, I need to ask about the "well, sort of" to your response about whether there is a hell.  Personally, I believe there is evil and a hell and the devil, the antithesis of God.  If I believe there is a way to avoid those three then I think it is my obligation to at least present it.  If I have the knowledge to help someone find good things and don't share it, that is the ultimate sin. 

Couldn't have been said better. 

[Moniker]

The religionists and secularists are as much at war in the USA as they are in Turkey, Iran, Palestine, and elsewhere. We can only hope reason will prevail in the USA, and our people will realize what was realized hundreds of years ago: government plus religion equals tyranny. Religion should remain a private matter between an individual and whatever god and doctrines s/he believes in, and should not be a guideline for public policy.

...with exception to the fact that with secularist Christians in the US, it is more of a verbal battleground as opposed to the outright slaughtering of other sects in the Middle East.

Turkey's alright with me, though! One of the more peacable Moslem countries in the world. 

[phuqueue]

In other words, Christians:  I demand you suppress your beliefs and keep them out of the political arena, so my beliefs can be implemented into policy instead.

I demand it.  - Mean

More like, Christians: I demand you don't try to force your beliefs on those who don't share them, but you can otherwise do as you like.

Where the hell did Christians develop this insane victim complex anyway?  I guess I must have missed the part where atheists took over the country and started making life really difficult for you guys.  The "belief" that mean would have implemented into policy is that people have every right to live and do as they please without getting hassled by others.  Just as it's not my place to force you to renounce your beliefs, it's not your place to make me accept them either, whether directly through attempted conversion or indirectly by implementing laws about public school prayer, Ten Commandments, or what have you.  Keeping religion out of the public sphere is not tantamount to stamping it out completely or refusing to let people practice it in private, although allowing any religion into the public sphere runs a serious risk of diminishing or even eventually destroying competing belief systems.  Any rational and honest person should be able to see that, and those of us without an imaginary friend find it somewhat problematic.

So, to recap:
Secular: People are free to live their lives as they choose.
Religious: Everyone has to do what I say.

Who was it again who was demanding that someone suppress their beliefs?

[Maitre D]

If you truly believe the left (secularists are almost always on that side of the spectrum, let's be frank) doesn't try and force any of their beliefs onto the religionists......we're not going to be able to have a productive conversation.

[nota]

Perhaps, I need to ask about the "well, sort of" to your response about whether there is a hell.  Personally, I believe there is evil and a hell and the devil, the antithesis of God.  If I believe there is a way to avoid those three then I think it is my obligation to at least present it.  If I have the knowledge to help someone find good things and don't share it, that is the ultimate sin. 

I DO NOT WANT to hear any of your beliefs in relation to what I SHOULD believe just because you think I need it.

Nor do many of the rest of us.

And in return, I promise that I will not tell you what I think YOU should believe.

Neither of us knows for a fact what belief is true and so should not foist our beliefs on others.

It kind of follows the premise of you have the right to swing your fist, but that right ends at my nose.

I continue to be surprised and repulsed at those who think it is their duty to straighten everyone out on religion. I support 100% your right to choose your beliefs. I wish you would respect mine.

[nota]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: beautyfromashes on Today at 09:02:54 AM

If I believe there is a way to avoid those three then I think it is my obligation to at least present it.  If I have the knowledge to help someone find good things and don't share it, that is the ultimate sin. 

Quote from lock&load:

Couldn't have been said better.

 

The problem with that way of thinking is that no one on this earth knows what is in the great beyond. There is only a belief. And zillions of people have zillions of views. Just because you think you "have knowledge" doesn't mean you have FACT. I (and zillions like me) prefer to make our own choices without interference from others unless asked.
 

[kcmetro]

This is interesting and I'm curious.
From your experience, would you mind sharing in detail the things they have told you were wrong, that in your opinion really aren't wrong at all?

Jerking off
Pre-marital sex
Taking God's name in vain
Homosexuality
Butt sex
Blow jobs
Same sex marriage
Doing drugs
Murder

All of these are seen by Christians as "sins". I see them as just parts of the illusion, no better, no worse than anything else.

[chrizow]

Murder

[nota]

Jerking off
Pre-marital sex
Taking God's name in vain
Homosexuality
Butt sex
Blow jobs
Same sex marriage
Doing drugs
Murder

All of these are seen by Christians as "sins". I see them as just parts of the illusion, no better, no worse than anything else.

And probably most of those self described "Christians" have done many if not all of the things you listed. They just hide it from view. "Do as I say, not as I do."

It has been my lifelong experience that most who call themselves Christians and are really vocal and judgemental about it are the worst ones as far as leading what I would call a Christian life. And their first offense is judging others.

Probably the most "Christian like" couple I know are Catholic. You wouldn't know it unless you asked. Yet they attend Mass every weekend, live their lives in a kind and "Christian" manner, attend Mass daily during Lent or other Holy occasions, do countless service things for people including visiting the ill and the nursing homes to pray with people who otherwise wouldn't be able to get out, etc, etc, etc.

But they NEVER speak about their religious beliefs to others or try to push them on the rest of us.

[kcmetro]

The question wasn't for you, it was for WSP.
But I'll humor you for a moment.

Jerking off - qualifier:do you mean masterbating to pornography? Which is addictive, denigrates women, destroys love within the marriage and wreaks havoc on the thoughts of men? Other than those things you won't find much else said from Christians on the subject. Mostly it's airheads wrongly spouting off something to the effect that pro-life must be against masterbation since it's killing babies. How dumb.

Pre-marital sex - you bet, premarital sex destroys lives, spreads disease, causes unwanted pregnancy and major insecurities. It diminishes true sexuality to sub-human form.

Taking God's name in vain - why do you need or want to do that? Just to make Christians angry? Like you really need to do this? If you think you really need to do this you're brainwashed. And I haven't heard anyone discuss this fro a pulpit in years.

Homosexuality- look at th average lifestyle, drug dependency and life expectancy of a homosexual. It kills.

Butt sex - here you're just wrong. Within the marriage there's nothing wrong with this if both partners agree. You're showing major ignorance here.

Blow jobs - see above

Same sex marriage - this is a no-brainer. See homosexuality above and the law of the land.

Doing drugs they destroy and kill the body and mind. They enslave people not ulike porn.

Murder taking innocent life outside of self-defense is wrong, read the law.

That's how you see it. That's not how I, nor millions of other people see it.