Official: KCMO Light Rail

[Highlander]

Thanks for posting those.  That took a lot of work.  While I still have problems with the route not being optimal in the midtown to Union Station stretch (and I believe your pics actually highlight my concerns quite well), the looming nature of crown center over the area does give the impression that the center is at least accessible.  I will still argue, however, that to many (particularly out-of-towners) trying to traverse the myriad of skywalks from the Hyatt and parts of CC through the entirety of Union Station is going to be a showstopper.

How many specified stops on the route?  This is roughly the same distance as the Houston route which has about 16 stops in its 7.5 mile length.   

[DaveKCMO]

Thanks for posting those.  That took a lot of work.  While I still have problems with the route not being optimal in the midtown to Union Station stretch (and I believe your pics actually highlight my concerns quite well), the looming nature of crown center over the area does give the impression that the center is at least accessible.  I will still argue, however, that too many (particularly out-of-towners) trying to traverse the myriad of skywalks from the Hyatt and parts of CC through the entirety of Union Station is going to be a showstopper.

How many specified stops on the route?  This is roughly the same distance as the Houston route which has about 16 stops in its 7.5 mile length.   

yes, it did take a lot of work. but with all of the negativity surrounding the route, i figured i had to see it, map it out, and dissect it for myself to properly defend the plan. is it better than main? no. is it worse? not really. if the city decides to significantly change the route and go back to voters, i'll be disgusted because it will delay what is a completely workable plan. i say go back to voters to remove the most contentious parts (gondola, closing of broadway) and leave it be.

i'm in the link a lot, and it gets a decent amount of use. besides, families walk to the navy pier in chicago (the el doesn't drop you anywhere near the entrance), and that's no easier a walk than this one. one more block? yes. showstopper? if yes, they're probably not going to walk it anyway.

...beginning at the Kansas City Zoo in Swope Park and ending at Kansas City International Airport including, but not limited to, stops at UMKC, Nelson Art Gallery, Plaza, Westport, Union Station, Performing Arts Center, Convention Center, Power & Light District, Sprint Center, City Market area, North Kansas City, North Oak Trafficway, and Zona Rosa...

i count 15 stops (including the endpoints), assuming you don't combine P+L and sprint center stops (which nothing about the ballot language precludes us from doing so... unless chastain gets litigeous about the word "at", as in "on the steps of"). i'm not a lawyer, though.

[warwickland]

[bbqboy]

Every one of those pictures shows nodes that could be developed and intensified. Beautiful.

[ShowMeKC]

The parts i'm concerned about were parts you didn't include but that's ok... The rail doesn't have to hit Bartle and shouldn't hit Bartle or the PAC, also, as I said, it's best if the line runs through the middle of the Crossroads instead of the far western portion. I'd be happy if it cut up SW Boulevard instead of continuing up Broadway, or some other route, but Bartle isn't a must, and the light rail shouldn't ignore most of the Crossroads, instead of equally serving all of the crossroads.
But that is a discussion for the other thread.

[KCMax]

Nice work Dave, that was very helpful!

[mykem]

very good work superdave.it makes me wonder what the route will actually be.

[Stockton]

I have to wonder why Chastain chose Broadway, particularly downtown. It bothers me.

[DaveKCMO]

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascit ... 067908.htm

[quote]Count James Taylor — owner of two of KC’s hautest haunts — La Bodega and re:Verse — as a fan of Clay Chastain’s light rail initiative.

“I’m in favor, and I think most people in the younger community are,â€

[KCMax]

[quote="DaveKCMO"]
“We’re starting an underground group of people who want to support Clay,â€

[ShowMeKC]

Obviously Taylor doesn't know what he's talking about... Because not all ppl who are upset are for buses.. Ther eisn't anything wrong with buses, we will need buses along with light rail, so that comment is even pretty stupid.

[bbqboy]

What would you propose to do with the traffic from Main? You can't eliminate 3-4 lanes of road without it having a spillover effect.
I think he made the correct choice in Broadway.

[DaveKCMO]

Yes, it's as though Chastain couldn't be more out of touch with downtown reality.

it goes THROUGH the downtown loop between broadway and oak. is that out of touch? i think julia kaufmann, cordish, every resident of quality hill, and every worker in the south loop might disagree. is the MAX out of touch, too?

Main Street is the canal through the city and keeps a shorter walk from the residential density that exists just east of Main.

check your density figures. the census bureau's dividing line between tracts is broadway. to the west is more dense than immediately to the east. http://factfinder.census.gov/

Broadway is on the extreme west side of downtown and midtown residential, and makes a walk from east of Main longer and unnecessary.

that may be true in the loop, but not in westport or the plaza.

Main touches everything...

um, it does?

...and allows riders to have a brief walk to all that KC is.... P&L, Sprint Ctr, US, Liberty Memorial, Crown Center (technically), Union Hill and is much closer to the bulk of midtown residential. It is also a straighter path. Broadway makes the walk to all of these much longer and tediously unnecessary. Broadway is also curving, confusing and has more physical costs and challenges. This is a no brainer.

check the route again. P+L, arena, union station, memorial are all covered perfectly. crown center is a two block walk through a elevated, covered walkway through one of our most beautiful assets (union station).

I would also love to see real urban TOD happen along Main between Union Station and 31st St.

can you name any tracts that aren't already spoken for? that's because they're either already developed (crown center), in the works (the fed), or proposed (31st and main). unless you want to develop the east edge of penn valley park...

This is actually the biggest, most important thing that will ever happen to KC's urban future.
With all of the disparate nodes that seperate KC's density and ability to get back to big-city status,
this route will either make or break the city for an eternity.

assuming we don't send it down the drain whilst nitpicking the ballot language we all voted on.

[49r]

With the route the way it is planned through the DT loop, the line is never more than 5 or 6 blocks from anywhere in the loop.  A route straight down main, grand or oak will put parts of the loop in some cases up to a mile away from rail.  If there is any part of the light rail line that you'd like to have it make jogs or turns, it would be downtown.  Not midtown or crossroads.

[ShowMeKC]

Wow, some of you are really being closed-minded on this issue, you won't even give up 1 inch of your own idea of a route will you?

Dave, the census numbers are now 6 years old, if your talking about the area w of broadway in DT being more dense than the Crossroads, i'd think again.

Again, like i've said before. His route is completely fine until it reaches the rail tracks... It should not continue up Broadway from the rail tracks. It needs to cut into the central Xroads, and go somewhere in the P&L District.

Like i've said many times, his route north of the tracks completely ignores the eastern half of Downtown, which has major potential for further development and infill/density.

Dave, not all the tracts in the area between 31st and Union Station are spoken for. The rest of the Trinity Lutheran site can be used, even if it has to be pried from the fingers from the Federal Reserve (the area between 29th and 31st). You also have the area just east of Main, south of 29th between Main and Grand.
Again, the urban TOD does not belong in the west xroads, it belongs in the center of the xroads district, directly between P&L and CC.

Oh and bbq, use your head man, don't pull numbers out of your ass. It won't eliminate 3-4 lanes of traffic. Main is an even larger avenue than Broadway... Not to mention that it turns one way at about 20th st.

Again, we cannot forget TOD, which is one of the most important aspects of light rail in urban areas. This could shift some momentum towards the west Xroads instead of keeping it evenly centered throughout Downtown.

[Highlander]

With the route the way it is planned through the DT loop, the line is never more than 5 or 6 blocks from anywhere in the loop.  A route straight down main, grand or oak will put parts of the loop in some cases up to a mile away from rail.  If there is any part of the light rail line that you'd like to have it make jogs or turns, it would be downtown.  Not midtown or crossroads.

I have no problems with a jog downtown.  But why not take it up Main from Crown Center (you can always bring it up Broadway through the Plaza and Wesport and then cut over to Main south of CC) and then jog over to Broadway around 12th street.  Then take it over the Broadway Bridge (if possible) straight through to the airport with stops at Barry Road, Briarcliff and Executive Hills North.  To say that light rail has to jog all over the place is not accurate especially in less dense areas like KC north which has its nodes arranged along the interstate anyway.

Also, while the population may be more dense west of Broadway, SW Trafficway is an impermeable barrier to pedestrians and would limit access from the west side.  

[bbqboy]

Wow, some of you are really being closed-minded on this issue, you won't even give up 1 inch of your own idea of a route will yo.


Oh and bbq, use your head man, don't pull numbers out of your ass. It won't eliminate 3-4 lanes of traffic. Main is an even larger avenue than Broadway... Not to mention that it turns one way at about 20th st.

Go ride a Light Rail System, especially on a section that runs along public throughfares, and then tell me how many lanes it would eliminate.
No matter which route, they'll be a displacement of traffic and parking. It's got to go somewhere.

[Highlander]

Go ride a Light Rail System, especially on a section that runs along public throughfares, and then tell me how many lanes it would eliminate.
No matter which route, they'll be a displacement of traffic and parking. It's got to go somewhere.

But I would think Broadway would have the same issues....perhaps it is the road less travelled but there is a reason for that, it goes to fewer places people want to go to.   

[Stockton]

I'm liking Chastain's plan more and more.

[kard]

Dave, the census numbers are now 6 years old, if your talking about the area w of broadway in DT being more dense than the Crossroads, i'd think again.

Nope.  QH has more density then the Crossroads.  The Crossroads has more potential, but currently fewer people.

Oh and bbq, use your head man, don't pull numbers out of your ass. It won't eliminate 3-4 lanes of traffic. Main is an even larger avenue than Broadway... Not to mention that it turns one way at about 20th st.

While the right two lanes of north-bound Main peel off to Walnut just north of the tracks, Main is two way the way through DT.

You should try to be nicer when correcting people with wrong information.