Proposition: A downtown Macy's department store

[chrizow]

honestly, given the strength of the Plaza, i'm not sure there is much room for clothing shopping downtown.  places like Birdie and Habitat and the new Bblaze place (which is called something other than Bblaze, but i forget what) fill a niche, but i can't see how downtown could top the critical mass of the Plaza - particularly Hall's (and its "new" hip men's section), A/X, the big Banana Republic, StandardStyle, Burberry, N. Valentino (which carries all the $260 ripped jeans your heart could desire), that other jeans store i've heard about but not visited, J.Crew, Guess, Mark Shale, Urban Outfitters, jack henry, ralph lauren polo, brooks brothers, st. john, bcbg, and on and on. 

i think the Plaza needs to step it up in the menswear department though and get all the chains that other cities have had for years - club monaco, Zara, H+M, etc. 

[tat2kc]

And you know, as many as downtown does have at the moment, there really are not enough residents to support a dept. store at the moment.  In order for a dept. store to be successsful downtown, it would need to be a store unique to KC.  In reality, between the River and the Plaza, there are plenty of shopping options for both men and women.  I really don't think we need a department store downtown.

[Tosspot]

I haven't quite figured out why similar merchants in Chicago, New York, and elsewhere continue to thrive (I shopped in a downtown Macy's in Seattle, last year-6 floors and more tall).

Easy, their downtown population base and draw from other regions of the city didn't fall off the proverbial cliff in the same dramatic manner than KC's interests did.

[LenexatoKCMO]

I don't know that "thrive" is necessarily the best word either.  Those downtown flagship stores have to have massive, massive overhead.  Plus you have to figure that a large part of the heavy volume coming in an out are touristy type shoppers who come in and buy a low margin trinket just so they can say that they went shopping at Macy's on fifth avenue, michigan avenue, union square, etc.  I would wager that a lot of those stores get operated much more from a marketing, brand image perspective, than from a profit perspective.  You can't tell me that Macy's wouldn't prefer to sell you your kids back to school wardrobe out at the relatively cheap overhead store in the mall rather than at the 7 story monster that costs them a bleeding fortune in big city rent, upkeep, and extra labor costs. 

[Highlander]

If people will shop there, why wouldn't the growing downtown residents shop there also? I cannot believe that everyone who lives downtown has shopping needs that are exclusive to Target or boutiques. Visitors and conventioneers will shop in a downtown department store, if it's there. I did in Seattle.

I'd like to see the same thing downtown.  As a youth, I do remember tagging along as my parents shopped at the likes of Macy's, Jones store and EBT to name a few.  But, this is what I do not get, despite all the condos/apartments going in dowtown, starting with Quality Hill to the present, the added residents seem to support very little in terms of retail and not that much entertainment either.  Am I getting the wrong idea of the scale of residential growth downtown?  It seems like the number of projects is significant and those on the drawing board will add a large amount of residents.  What is it....are vacancy rates high in condos/apts coming on line?  Where is the demand that we would normally expect to see after this type of building boom.  

[DaveKCMO]

i think people are still acclimating to living downtown. i know it took me awhile before i stopped getting in my car to drive to the plaza to shop. people were seduced by the historic buildings, low maintenance, deferred property taxes, bountiful parking, and other amenities. once P+L opens, people will have a reason to stick around on the sidewalks other than grabbing a cup of coffee.

regardless, department stores are a dying breed. retail has become too competitive for that kind of overhead. it's either big box, specialty, or discounters.

[kcdcchef]

I'd like to see the same thing downtown.  As a youth, I do remember tagging along as my parents shopped at the likes of Macy's, Jones store and EBT to name a few.  But, this is what I do not get, despite all the condos/apartments going in dowtown, starting with Quality Hill to the present, the added residents seem to support very little in terms of retail and not that much entertainment either.  Am I getting the wrong idea of the scale of residential growth downtown?  It seems like the number of projects is significant and those on the drawing board will add a large amount of residents.  What is it....are vacancy rates high in condos/apts coming on line?  Where is the demand that we would normally expect to see after this type of building boom.  

i wanted to weigh in on this topic from a different angle now, as i already have beat the drum for a department store downtown, and still feel the need to bring one back. just not what we had before though.

retail in downtown kansas city stuck around too long, and it is to me the primary reason it is not back yet. dillards, and jones, stuck around until the 1990's, jones almost made it to 2000, dillards dying off first in the very early 1990's. they both should have went the way of everything else in the 1970's and 1980's and just bailed on downtown, but they did not, hoping the quality hill thing would be a residential boom for dt, which, it was not, and it would sustain them. subsequently, by banking on the qh thing to spur tens of thosuands of new residents in the city in the late 1980's, they gambled and hung out. and waited. and waited. and waited. then realized the city was dead, as were their delapitated old properties, then went. as a result, the retailers cite that less then 10 years ago the city had retail, and did not support it, which is the wrong choice of words. there was no residential to support dt retail, and what little there was were not going to go to a falling apart mildew smelling department store that had not been renovated since 1950.

fast forward to 2006, we cannot get the retail that we should have in the city, because of the poor choices of the may company ( dillards ) and the mercantile company ( jones ) to not renovate their stores, to not make shopping what it should have been in 1994, and as such, losing what little life there was dt to the independence center, oak park, metro north, etc. we have to pay for their shitty business decisions, namely, attempting to stay in business when it was clear their time had come, and gone. had they closed up shop, like the rest of downtown kansas city in 1985, we would have retail back by now. and trust me, i shopped at both of them right up until i moved, and they were always DEAD.

with regards to department stores, if you look around, they are still opening up. all of the time at that. new stand alone jcpenny's have popped up in the kcmetro more then once. and companies that are buying the department stores are bringing them back into downtowns in many cities, here in pittsburgh included, we have a new macy's now. this idea that retail by itself, small shops, are better then department stores, is great and all, but most all retail still tends to hover around a department store. and if you think the plaza is the shining example of the area without one, what do you think halls is, a quickie mart?

or, if you need more proof, look it up online, see the number of dpt stores in america, it is hardly in decline, nor is their profit margins.

[nota]

i honestly dont know too many people in my age group (~25) that shop at the old school department stores. in many nuevo-successful downtowns i see a smattering of the smaller places like the gap, etc. in any case, i tend to think more-smaller scale vs fewer-larger scale stores are better in general for the vitality of a re-emerging urban center.

Just for fun, do you have any numbers on the buying power of your generation and mine?

I've shopped at department stores all my adult life. Where else can you get nice wedding gifts, nicer clothing, nicer housewares?

The Gap, etc are for exactly the demographic you are talking about.

But one or two department stores should be enough for KC's DT. And it also might anchor a few smaller stores by bringing the foot traffic. No one is going to go DT to go to Gap or Target, but they might for several stores together. Whoever above said it needs to be unique to the metro has the right idea.

[kcdcchef]

Just for fun, do you have any numbers on the buying power of your generation and mine?

I've shopped at department stores all my adult life. Where else can you get nice wedding gifts, nicer clothing, nicer housewares?

The Gap, etc are for exactly the demographic you are talking about.

But one or two department stores should be enough for KC's DT. And it also might anchor a few smaller stores by bringing the foot traffic. No one is going to go DT to go to Gap or Target, but they might for several stores together. Whoever above said it needs to be unique to the metro has the right idea.

thank you nota. and the bottom line, you twenty somethings may love the gap, abercrombie, or however the fuck you spell it, aerpostale, again, however you spell it, all that stuff, but something should and will be said for the simple fact that across our great country to this day, gap, and the others, still, do not just go out and build on their own. they attach to an area that has a department store as an anchor. sorry, just the reality of it.

and everytime my wife goes to talbots or jones new york, or gap, they always have less then 10 people, whereas, you go to a department store, and you can always count way over 100 at any given time.

coincidence?

[kcmetro]

I think the East Village would be a good spot for a department store. If they're planning on tearing down all those structures, it would allow developers/architects more leeway with designing a dept. store than trying to adapt one to an already existing building.

[nota]

thank you nota. and the bottom line, you twenty somethings may love the gap, abercrombie, or however the fuck you spell it, aerpostale, again, however you spell it, all that stuff, but something should and will be said for the simple fact that across our great country to this day, gap, and the others, still, do not just go out and build on their own. they attach to an area that has a department store as an anchor. sorry, just the reality of it.

and everytime my wife goes to talbots or jones new york, or gap, they always have less then 10 people, whereas, you go to a department store, and you can always count way over 100 at any given time.

coincidence?

Aeropostale is a great place to shop for young people's clothes. And they are decent clothes.

Even though my grandkids wail about it, I refuse to spend a dime in Old Navy. Garbage clothing plain and simple.

My favorite menswear store is on the Plaza-N. Valentino.

Most of my own clothes come from Jones or Dillards or Penneys.

[DaveKCMO]

and everytime my wife goes to talbots or jones new york, or gap, they always have less then 10 people, whereas, you go to a department store, and you can always count way over 100 at any given time.

coincidence?

and i'm sure all the store closures and mergers are just coincidence and mismanagement...

[kcdcchef]

and i'm sure all the store closures and mergers are just coincidence and mismanagement...

how many you seen close in a busy area? give me a break dave, they close where everything else closes.

mergers are business, it happens. it happens to a lot of big, and even successful companies slick.

[kc-vino]

I think as it stands now their is a huge disparity between the amount of people downtown (both living and those that work or visit downtown) and the amount of retail of all sorts.  And this off ratio considers the purchasing power of the average resident of downtown in comparison to the average resident in north Kansas city, mission, lee summitt, etc. 

Somebody mentioned it a couple of posts back but many residents that currently live downtown are still getting used to shopping locally.  Their is still issues with the critical mass of people on sidewalks DT that intice residents to walk to areas and shop. For instance, can you really blame a woman who isn't necessarily an urban enthusiast to walk alone across the main street bridge through the loop to a department store on the southern end of the loop, then to walk home after dark on a weeknight with a shopping bag.  I'm not saying people are not safe or some people would be better off not doing this activity, but I'm rather being realistic about shoppers levels of comfort when they shop.  To many it is still way more appealing to shop in areas of Westport, the Plaza, on 39th street, in crown center, in a mall in the burbs....all of which offer more comfort.  Once critical mass materialises more and more DT you'll see more people partake in these activities.  If every street downtown was like Broadway around Quality Hill on a busy night , you would would have people strolling for hours on end just for the kick of it glancing at street level retail, but this currently isn't the case overall.

[BRose]

This discussion reminds me of a quick trip to New York.  Of all of the places we visited, and all the activities we did, the one thing my girlfriend repeatedly talks about is a Department Store.  It’s located near Ground Zero.  The place is called Century 21: http://www.ny.com/cgibin/frame.cgi?url= ... pping.html

Simply put the overhead cost has to be tremendous due to the location.  Yet they have all of the “youthâ€

[KC0KEK]

Showing a New Style, Department Stores Surge

In a remarkable reversal of fortune, the performance of department stores has quietly overtaken that of specialty clothing retailers like Gap and Limited . . . Over the last 12 months, sales at department stores open at least a year, a widely used measure of a retailer’s health, have grown 4.1 percent, compared with a 1.3 percent increase at specialty apparel chains, according to the International Council of Shopping Centers, a trade group. This holiday season, the gap is expected to grow even wider. At the same time, profits are surging and executives accustomed to cutting back are dusting off old plans for new stores.

Rest at http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/17/busin ... ref=slogin.

[advocrat]

To me, a vibrant downtown is predicated on retail, augmented by restaurants, enriched by residents, and supported by offices.  A key element for my perception are department stores.  The department store can be a Target, or Dillards, Macy's Nordstroms or Neiman-Marcus, or even that new-fangled urban Wal-mart that Atlanta is getting.

Department stores form anexusfor other street level merchants, and are places that downtown workers visit during lunch or at the end of the day. A department store chain can also use a downtown location as its regional headquarters office with their local advertising, and administration above.  I hope to see a department store inside the loop. I know Mayor Barnes shares the dream, having stated that as one of her Mayoral goals. Her term may end before this can happen, but I hope to see such a retail establishment added to the exciting mix that is under development.

[Stockton]

I'm not sure Atlanta's Wal-Mart is urban enough for our downtown.

It would be amazing to have a Target for downtown residents to walk to.

Urban grocery store + urban Target = winner

[FangKC]

If Macy's were to consider locating a store downtown, where could it be located?

Downtown could probably support some sort of discount household goods retail store or a small department store like Stein Mart, Gordman's, or Kohl's instead of one of the larger department stores. With all the new apartment dwellers, even Bed, Bath & Beyond might do okay.

In the pursuit of inner-city markets not being sought by Wal-Mart and Target, retailers like K-Mart or J.C. Penney or a Sears Grand might also do well here with smaller stores by going into locations where the others won't. There wouldn't be the suburban competition downtown.

A Macy's type department store might do better at Crown Center than downtown because of similar retail there, building space available, and parking. I doubt that Hallmark would ever allow another large retailer though that would compete with Hall's.

[trailerkid]

honestly, given the strength of the Plaza, i'm not sure there is much room for clothing shopping downtown.  places like Birdie and Habitat and the new Bblaze place (which is called something other than Bblaze, but i forget what) fill a niche, but i can't see how downtown could top the critical mass of the Plaza - particularly Hall's (and its "new" hip men's section), A/X, the big Banana Republic, StandardStyle, Burberry, N. Valentino (which carries all the $260 ripped jeans your heart could desire), that other jeans store i've heard about but not visited, J.Crew, Guess, Mark Shale, Urban Outfitters, jack henry, ralph lauren polo, brooks brothers, st. john, bcbg, and on and on. 

The Plaza is 40 blocks away from downtown and might as well be in a different city. If anything, say there is no room for something like the Mission Gateway which is in the Plaza's backyard-- no one would dare say that.

There is absolutely nothing overwhelming about the shopping options on the Plaza compared to places like Northpark in Dallas or South Coast Plaza in Cali. It's basically a medium-sized collection of upscale shops and restaurants-- that's it. Downtown should pick up some of the Plaza's slack in terms of becoming a large super-regional destination. There is sooooo much more room and potential downtown for shopping and dining in the downtown area than the Plaza. Downtown has much better physcial and cultural infrastructure and appeals to a much larger audience than the WASP-infested Plaza. Downtown can support and needs huge destination retail as well as neighborhood retailers like Target or McDonald's. Of course the downtown area alone is not going to support 500,000 sq. feet of new retail, but neither does the Plaza. There are people from all over the Midwest who would come downtown to shop in a flagship Macy's  and nearby local and national boutiques. Many will be coming for the entertainment options in the P+L District and it'd be foolish not to complement these venues with new retail.