KCRag Forum

KCPowercat wrote: I think one downtown wouldn't touch the plaza's business.

More people come with more amenities like bookstores

Yeah - I don't see a ton of overlap.  I think the Plaza BN gets a fair amount of business from residents on the plaza and points south - most of those folks wouldn't drive past the plaza store to go DT.  If there were a DT store, it would have to rely more on visitors from farther afield.  

All seems moot - I doubt cordish could sign a dollar store or a check casher at this point let alone a major bookstore.

Now cordish is inept?  I doubt that is the case based on their history. Long process ahead to flesh it all out.

I live downtown, been to the plaza b&n maybe once per year. Would use a downtown one monthly.

I know we are all retail experts here but that's just one downtown resident's take.

KCPowercat wrote: Now cordish is inept?  I doubt that is the case based on their history. Long process ahead to flesh it all out.

There is an entire block of apparently semi-permanent vacant retail, along with quite a few other spaces, that certainly raise that question. 

Its frustrating no doubt but I think the developer is way down in the list of factors as to why those aren't full right now.

I am taking a patient long-term neighborhood approach.

KCPowercat wrote: I think one downtown wouldn't touch the plaza's business.

More people come with more amenities like bookstores

I think that another B&N or similar bookstore would not make a negative impact on each other to downtown or The Plaza.  As mentioned by TK, Fort Worth has a B&N downtown and another on University Drive only about 3.5 miles away.  The Plaza is about 4.5 miles from DTKMCO.

The demographics of DTFW and it's immediate westside and DTKCMO and it's immediate southside are a lot the same.  Only KC is probably denser.

On another note..  This is my 1000th post, after six years on this forum!!!!!

There are Borders locations 3.5 miles apart along Metcalf in Overland Park (one at 91st and another at 119th), the one at 119th isn't more than a mile and a half from the Barnes and Nobles at Town Center (119th and Roe), and 5 miles from another Borders in Olathe (at 119th I-35). Granted JOCO has a huge retail market, but I'd be surprised if dt couldn't support a medium sized Borders store.

I live near Brookside, but I would drive past the B&N on the Plaza to get to a Borders downtown. Borders let's customers use their computers to look up books. B&N makes you ask someone. I hate asking for directions.

KCTigerFan wrote: Both of the bookstores you mentioned struggle financially and generally receive near free rent.  I am a huge proponent of a bookstore, but the reality is they generally struggle in downtowns.

A bookstore is an amenity that people want downtown. I generally support EVERYTHING Cordish is doing, but it seems like we're getting a lot of lip service on the retail portion. I think they may be in over their heads with that retail block and should've partnered with a developer that has experience beyond 90% food & beverage or big box. 

I'm not arguing that true urban bookstores are as profitable in markets as small as Kansas City, but I don't understand why Cordish is willing to give Borders free rent in Louisville and not Kansas City? The Cosentino's won't be as profitable as the Brookside store, but it's an attractive tenant for downtown. Cordish was brought in on this development to bring in tenants that won't come naturally-- not whine about what is/isn't profitable. We KNOW downtown isn't profitable-- that's why Cordish is involved in the first place-- to turn it around.

Is Cordish prepared to offer deals in the P+L like sweetheart rent or free build-outs like they (and other urban developers) have used in their other developments? If the answer is no and we're seeing it happen elsewhere (ahem, Houston Pavillions) the questions needs to be asked why not here?

trailerkid wrote:

but I don't understand why Cordish is willing to give Borders free rent in Louisville and not Kansas City? The Cosentino's won't be as profitable as the Brookside store, but it's an attractive tenant for downtown. Cordish was brought in on this development to bring in tenants that won't come naturally-- not whine about what is/isn't profitable.

How do we know they aren't?  Tigerfan's comment notes that even with near free rent they have a hard time in downtowns, so it's quite possible that they are offering it up but there still aren't any takers because Borders/B&N still don't think they can turn a profit even without that overhead.

Gretz wrote: How do we know they aren't?  Tigerfan's comment notes that even with near free rent they have a hard time in downtowns, so it's quite possible that they are offering it up but there still aren't any takers because Borders/B&N still don't think they can turn a profit even without that overhead.

I don't have any doubt that most big chains aren't in expansion mode in places like downtown KC. However, I find it very hard to believe that Borders would jump on Louisville and not KC if the same leases were offered. Books-a-Million just opened a store in downtown Houston which has a similar residential population as KC. Again, wasn't Cordish brought to KC to deliver? Give me the land and money and I can make up excuses for why a certain store won't come downtown.

Call me crazy, but I truly believe that a large, downtown bookstore would do quite well. There are hundreds of thousands of people within a few miles of downtown that would would be potential patrons. The downtown store would probably be more accessible both by car and bus than the Plaza B&N and offer another choice besides B&N for everyone living in the city.

Saying that a downtown bookstore would put B&N on the Plaza out of business is completely ridiculous. That's like saying that 801 shouldn't come to town because it'll put Plaza III out of business. Or saying that a GAP store would put the Plaza GAP out of business. Geographically, KC is a very large city and I'd like to believe we can create a destination downtown while still maintaining all the tacky, middle-brow chain stores at the Plaza.

Both the Plaza and the P+L could support a boookstore. I don't see how one could have a negative affect on the other. I'm still hoping a Border's will eventually be a part of downtown.

By the way, I e-mailed a representative from Cordish about this issue, and his reply was basically a non-reply, something like, "We're excited to be working with Kansas City..."