KCRag Forum

So another reason it's a bad design. The Baltimore drive is where they are going to empty group buses.

It was just a focus on the Wyandotte side going to the ballroom and the Baltimore side was an after thought. Is it a building killer? No. Will it be an annoyance for groups and customers? Yes.

KCPowercat wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:39 pm So another reason it's a bad design. The Baltimore drive is where they are going to empty group buses.

It was just a focus on the Wyandotte side going to the ballroom and the Baltimore side was an afterthought. Is it a building killer? No. Will it be an annoyance for groups and customers? Yes.

That does sound bad.

Maybe this is what we should have done with the lyric

^That's Loews Memphis btw

normalthings wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2020 11:43 pm Maybe this is what we should have done with the lyric

What owner wanted to do that with the Lyric?

KCPowercat wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:39 pm So another reason it's a bad design. The Baltimore drive is where they are going to empty group buses.

It was just a focus on the Wyandotte side going to the ballroom and the Baltimore side was an after thought. Is it a building killer? No. Will it be an annoyance for groups and customers? Yes.

The Baltimore side has an elevator lobby with access to every floor and busses will be able to unload much closer to an entrance. How is that an annoyance?

normalthings wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2020 8:17 am

KCPowercat wrote: ↑Sun Jun 14, 2020 6:02 pm That's a really bad design flaw.

It’s a 5 floor drop. There are stairs part of the way and elevator

The Lobby is floor 4 so there's no way it can be a 5 floor drop

flyingember wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:21 am

KCPowercat wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:39 pm So another reason it's a bad design. The Baltimore drive is where they are going to empty group buses.

It was just a focus on the Wyandotte side going to the ballroom and the Baltimore side was an after thought. Is it a building killer? No. Will it be an annoyance for groups and customers? Yes.

The Baltimore side has an elevator lobby with access to every floor and busses will be able to unload much closer to an entrance. How is that an annoyance?

Have you ever moved 100s of people into a hotel only using elevators? It doesn't work well. Especially if they all need to go to the main lobby to check in. Everytime you come back from P&L have to jump into an elevator to go a couple floors to the lobby? Dumb and kills potential business into your lobby bar. Just bad design.

Wow. Another dump on the Crossroads. Thanks, Mike!

DaveKCMO wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:15 am Wow. Another dump on the Crossroads. Thanks, Mike!

IIRC, the local group was separated from the project at some point.

KCPowercat wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:52 am

flyingember wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:21 am

KCPowercat wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:39 pm So another reason it's a bad design. The Baltimore drive is where they are going to empty group buses.

It was just a focus on the Wyandotte side going to the ballroom and the Baltimore side was an after thought. Is it a building killer? No. Will it be an annoyance for groups and customers? Yes.

The Baltimore side has an elevator lobby with access to every floor and busses will be able to unload much closer to an entrance. How is that an annoyance?

Have you ever moved 100s of people into a hotel only using elevators? It doesn't work well. Especially if they all need to go to the main lobby to check in. Everytime you come back from P&L have to jump into an elevator to go a couple floors to the lobby? Dumb and kills potential business into your lobby bar. Just bad design.

Escalators would have been tricky to implement within the current massing. Of course, you could extend the building out but that costs money.

There is another conditioned elevator "lobby" over on the garage side that takes you up to the check-in level. I wonder if the larger set of elevators also goes down there? I guess this gives me a reason to go back and explore some more!

Is there anything wrong with dropping people off on Wyandotte if the Baltimore entrance doesn't end up working well? And if P/L to Loews pedestrian traffic becomes a big problem, wouldn't that make Loews more inclined to help build a loop cap park with grand stairs?

Any indication on occupancy numbers for Loews as well as other downtown hotels? National average is going some but lower end hotels/motels are improving more than above average hotels..

earthling wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:30 pm Any indication on occupancy numbers for Loews as well as other downtown hotels? National average is going some but lower end hotels/motels are improving more than above average hotels..

normalthings wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:32 pm 9 rooms booked tonight. Down from ~120 during weekend.

^Rather dismal out of 800 rooms.

Found this, no occupancy/RevPAR numbers but downtown Marriott said 'very low'. Other details on downtown hotel layoffs...
https://www.kbia.org/post/kansas-city-n ... c#stream/0

I mean there is literally nobody staying in hotels around the country. A few weekend tourists aren't worth even being open at this point. Almost zero businesss are allowing business travel, no convnetions, no events, it's hard to expect otherwise.

earthling wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:38 pm ^Rather dismal out of 800 rooms.

Found this, no occupancy/RevPAR numbers but downtown Marriott said 'very low'. Other details on downtown hotel layoffs...
https://www.kbia.org/post/kansas-city-n ... c#stream/0

15% over the weekend seems really good for now. Staff said the bar is doing better than expected and full most evenings

KCPowercat wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:46 pm I mean there is literally nobody staying in hotels around the country.

Actually the average US occupancy was 36% average a couple weeks ago and rising, though cheaper hotels are above avg while nicer hotels are below occupancy average.

https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/ ... t-COVID-19

KCPowercat wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:39 pm So another reason it's a bad design. The Baltimore drive is where they are going to empty group buses.

It was just a focus on the Wyandotte side going to the ballroom and the Baltimore side was an after thought. Is it a building killer? No. Will it be an annoyance for groups and customers? Yes.

Are you an architect or have any experience in commercial building design? In my experience, these things are all considered and choices are made based off of best case scenarios. It's not like they're just now saying, "Shit, we really messed this up." Not in today's world of 3D modeling and realistic virtual touring. So what may seem like a bad design to you may have been the best option available for good reason.

In my time with a big developer, I would suggest design changes and I'd always have a good reason as to why I believed it needed a change. Sometimes I won and sometimes they explained to me why it had to be the way it was.

earthling wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:01 pm

KCPowercat wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:46 pm I mean there is literally nobody staying in hotels around the country.

Actually the average US occupancy was 36% average a couple weeks ago and rising, though cheaper hotels are above avg while nicer hotels are below occupancy average.

https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/ ... t-COVID-19

I've stayed in a few different cities and hotels over the last 3 weeks. While light, there's still a decent amount of business travelers. Enough to get the hotel bars and restaurants opened with a smaller staff.

earthling wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:01 pm

KCPowercat wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:46 pm I mean there is literally nobody staying in hotels around the country.

Actually the average US occupancy was 36% average a couple weeks ago and rising, though cheaper hotels are above avg while nicer hotels are below occupancy average.

https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/ ... t-COVID-19

Of course I was being a bit hyperbolic. I'd guess that occupancy number doesn't include shuttered hotels which takes 10s of thousands of rooms out. People are staying at some tourist towns but nobody is traveling to the likes of KC convention hotels.

DColeKC wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:05 pm

KCPowercat wrote: ↑Mon Jun 15, 2020 9:39 pm So another reason it's a bad design. The Baltimore drive is where they are going to empty group buses.

It was just a focus on the Wyandotte side going to the ballroom and the Baltimore side was an after thought. Is it a building killer? No. Will it be an annoyance for groups and customers? Yes.

Are you an architect or have any experience in commercial building design? In my experience, these things are all considered and choices are made based off of best case scenarios. It's not like they're just now saying, "Shit, we really messed this up." Not in today's world of 3D modeling and realistic virtual touring. So what may seem like a bad design to you may have been the best option available for good reason.

In my time with a big developer, I would suggest design changes and I'd always have a good reason as to why I believed it needed a change. Sometimes I won and sometimes they explained to me why it had to be the way it was.

It's pretty clear to see putting your drive to drop off your buses and side facing more neighborhood activity and not giving them high capacity methods to get them from drop off to usable floors is bad design.

Same way the 16th Street design is bad in this building. Cost and just not at all caring about that site elevation. More important to have a cheap car side and platform for the ballroom.

Of course alternatives and better design were considered. Cost and site layout were the big reasons these were omitted. So yeah you are right this was their best case scenario. Doesn't make it good design.