KCRag Forum

moderne wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 4:51 pm From the aerial perspectives I do not see much improvement. I hope from street level the bulk of BAP is closer to grade. Would rather have a monumental signature fountain than a "decorative water feature." And deeper soil basins to support some real shade trees.

All or almost all of new BAP is at grade.

Unimpressive

KCPowercat wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:06 pmUnimpressive

How? This is an event plaza with mixed/income residential tower. This design feels like it works a lot better with the new loop cap park. They won’t compete but instead compliment each other now.

KCPowercat wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:06 pmUnimpressive

As opposed to the garage raining chunks of concrete that we have now? It may not be Central Park, but it’s a step above what currently exists there

normalthings wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:52 pm

KCPowercat wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:06 pmUnimpressive

How? This is an event plaza with mixed/income residential tower. This design feels like it works a lot better with the new loop cap park. They won’t compete but instead compliment each other now.

It basically looks like it did the day it opened. That's unimpressive. When the"future" actually happens it would be better but still an odd place to put housing.

Broadway bridge park is wasted money but this project is too underambitious? I really can’t tell what any of you actually believe at this point

I'm not sure if this has been though of at this point, but what about:

a.) Have the eventual south loop cap park be our "downtown park/plaza" in that area and then

b.) just get rid of Barney Allis plaza and develop on it.

Then we don't have to keep worrying about it and we'll already have a newer, better park like two feet away.

TheLastGentleman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:44 pm Broadway bridge park is wasted money but this project is too underambitious? I really can’t tell what any of you actually believe at this point

Given this is right after my post I assume it's partially directed at me. Yes. Opinions might not match yours. Makes the board more interesting.

I've never been against saving buck.bridge for something bigger. A bridge to nowhere that we have to continue to maintain a bridge isn't impressive either.

This plan might as well be BAP when it opened last time. How is that impressive?

KCPowercat wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:39 pm

normalthings wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:52 pm

KCPowercat wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:06 pmUnimpressive

How? This is an event plaza with mixed/income residential tower. This design feels like it works a lot better with the new loop cap park. They won’t compete but instead compliment each other now.

It basically looks like it did the day it opened. That's unimpressive. When the"future" actually happens it would be better but still an odd place to put housing.

I agree. This new plan is not impressive at all. I mean come on. They have to do better than than this for such a prime space. And an apartment building looks terrible there. There are 5000 other places downtown to build a mixed income building.

I don't get this at all. Not for that kind of money.

And I'm guessing one of KC's signature fountains goes away?

GRID wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:34 am

KCPowercat wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:39 pm

normalthings wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 9:52 pm

How? This is an event plaza with mixed/income residential tower. This design feels like it works a lot better with the new loop cap park. They won’t compete but instead compliment each other now.

It basically looks like it did the day it opened. That's unimpressive. When the"future" actually happens it would be better but still an odd place to put housing.

I agree. This new plan is not impressive at all. I mean come on. They have to do better than than this for such a prime space. And an apartment building looks terrible there. There are 5000 other places downtown to build a mixed income building.

I don't get this at all. Not for that kind of money.

And I'm guessing one of KC's signature fountains goes away?

The fountain is going away either way. BAP is getting bulldozed, it's a fact at this point. The only question is if we want to rebuild or make it a grass lot or surface lot. Those are the 2 alternatives presented to the council. City must maintain control of BAP until Convention Center debt is repaid.

Bulldozing alone is $30-40 million IIRC.

Maybe I'm just old-fashioned, but my favorite plazas are basically just urban forests with some paths and benches running through the trees. And the one that specifically comes to mind is actually built above a subterranean parking garage, but you'd never guess it based on the size of the trees.

It seems like this design was driven entirely by a desire to create open sight lines to the performance area. The centerpiece of the plaza is a giant slab of concrete surrounded by open space. My first thought when seeing the pictures was that this is a place where people will just get baked in the sun. Hopefully the trees are just not drawn to scale to make it easier to see the design of the plaza... but as they appear in the images they are more decorative than functional (for shade/feeling of enclosure).

normalthings wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:48 am

GRID wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 12:34 am

KCPowercat wrote: ↑Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:39 pm

It basically looks like it did the day it opened. That's unimpressive. When the"future" actually happens it would be better but still an odd place to put housing.

I agree. This new plan is not impressive at all. I mean come on. They have to do better than than this for such a prime space. And an apartment building looks terrible there. There are 5000 other places downtown to build a mixed income building.

I don't get this at all. Not for that kind of money.

And I'm guessing one of KC's signature fountains goes away?

The fountain is going away either way. BAP is getting bulldozed, it's a fact at this point. The only question is if we want to rebuild or make it a grass lot or surface lot. Those are the 2 alternatives presented to the council. City must maintain control of BAP until Convention Center debt is repaid.

Bulldozing alone is $30-40 million IIRC.

We all understand the current situation. Why not at minimum replace the fountain? It's been a never used green space as it is so we are just going to do the same thing?

It feels like we're trying to do everything in this one location and doing none of it well. Apartment building, park, parking, event space..... ad nauseum. Just pick one and do it well. Build a highrise and fill in the streetgrid more. Make an exceptional park with truly enough space for peace and quiet and relaxation. Quit trying to do it all. That always fails.

Agreed. It's a KC speciality, we attack everything piecemeal and don't approach it with a strategy / master plan in mind.

How anybody could be shocked by my "unimpressed" by this plan is pretty surprising, even for us.

I generally agree with the "unimpressed" sentiments, for the price tag. IMO, the last thing downtown needs is another large, empty "event" space.

Would prefer to see BAP become a more consistently useful and active park. Maybe a sculpture park with water features, a la City Garden in STL, or a densely wooded greenspace with meandering paths to provide a true central DT park/escape. Maybe a great cultural/greenspace with a few restaurants above parking, a la Yerba Buena in SF. Maybe a large signature fountain in the center (unlikely due to cost), or active outdoor space like pickleball courts along with the dog park.

While I appreciate the drop to ground level and the fact that anything is better than the current situation, the design as planned looks like a typical, dated "downtown event plaza" plan one would have proposed in the 80s-90s.

How about we take that map of all our "greenspaces" like they seemed to do in that plan and come up with an actual plan for all of them. Love the idea of a City Garden STL thing.

The thing that can't just be brushed aside is that the city has commitments to keep the parking garage at BAP.
Commitments not just to surrounding hotels via long-term leases, but collateral commitments to bond holders for various projects the city owns. You can't just demolish this and do nothing or turn it into a park or some other development. The city must rebuild this garage or face some serious legal and financial backlash. This leaves the city pretty limited in their options. They are pretty much on the hook for 90 million in costs, minimum, to get a plain jane parking garage.

kboish wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:13 am The thing that can't just be brushed aside is that the city has commitments to keep the parking garage at BAP.
Commitments not just to surrounding hotels via long-term leases, but collateral commitments to bond holders for various projects the city owns. You can't just demolish this and do nothing or turn it into a park or some other development. The city must rebuild this garage or face some serious legal and financial backlash. This leaves the city pretty limited in their options. They are pretty much on the hook for 90 million in costs, minimum, to get a plain jane parking garage.

This should be a cautionary tale for the future to not make parking commitments that aren't really needed. There's plenty of parking in that part of DT to meet any current demand and if spots were a few blocks away or cost a few dollars extra, perhaps people might use the streetcar that has a stop less than a 5 minute walk away.

I don't mind keeping the same or nearly the same number of parking spaces - those are used by hotels, Municipal, Music Hall, Bartle and probably some others I can't think of. By now most people know about parking further away and taking the streetcar, but during busy weekends with the Big 12 tourney, Auto Show at Bartle, maybe something going on at Municipal or Kaufman Center then it's fine IMO. Let's figure out how to make some better revenue from it and implement a better solution at street level.

kcjak wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 11:59 am I don't mind keeping the same or nearly the same number of parking spaces - those are used by hotels, Municipal, Music Hall, Bartle and probably some others I can't think of. By now most people know about parking further away and taking the streetcar, but during busy weekends with the Big 12 tourney, Auto Show at Bartle, maybe something going on at Municipal or Kaufman Center then it's fine IMO. Let's figure out how to make some better revenue from it and implement a better solution at street level.

But, this is what Kansas City ALWAYS DOES!! We plan our parking around some worst case scenario where everything is happening at the same time. It's so inefficient. Plan for the number of spaces you use everyday, so they're full and used every day. Give some incentive for people to live DT or take public transportation or go early and eat at a restaurant in the Crossroads and walk. How lazy are we?