OFFICIAL - Main Street Streetcar Extension

[alejandro46]

Tom Gerend confirms on KCUR this morning that anything beyond the Main Street and Riverfront extensions will need regional funding. The TDD value capture model doesn't work most places due to the high cost of streetcar and the low value/density of KC real estate.

Not surprising, especially with the last measure requiring all of KCMO to vote on future expansions.

This discussion should continue on the "Phase Three" thread. I think it's a serious and exciting discussion for our streetcar to be expanded further now that we have the biggest hurdle of Phase 2 starting to fall, but the concern is that we are expanding just to justify broadening tax bases throughout the region versus actually focusing on the most dense and transit ready places in the urban core.

If you had two options fight for a KCMO only tax vs. regional bi-state tax with more focus on KS side, which do we think is more likely to pass? If we had a regional funding source, that may also cover 0-fare for bus also.

If you could just run to urban core of KCK and Overland Park, that doesn't seem that insurmountable by rail. I know this has been discussed before, but it seems like suburbanites are on board with the SC but not buses.

[flyingember]

If you could just run to urban core of KCK and Overland Park, that doesn't seem that insurmountable by rail. I know this has been discussed before, but it seems like suburbanites are on board with the SC but not buses.

The distances are nothing, there's systems that have expanded more miles at once, but where do you find $1.2 billion dollars? (rounding up for the future)

Downtown KCK is 3 miles away.

Old downtown OP is 7.5 miles

That's more distance than the river to UMKC, almost twice as much.

[TheLastGentleman]

The idea that the streetcar will just stay the same size permanently after the UMKC expansion is frankly horrifying. We have one of the few successful modern streetcars in the US and any notion that it won't be able to ever expand again is cruelly ironic and should be infinity depressing for everyone on here.

[normalthings]

Tom Gerend confirms on KCUR this morning that anything beyond the Main Street and Riverfront extensions will need regional funding. The TDD value capture model doesn't work most places due to the high cost of streetcar and the low value/density of KC real estate.

Not surprising, especially with the last measure requiring all of KCMO to vote on future expansions.

This discussion should continue on the "Phase Three" thread. I think it's a serious and exciting discussion for our streetcar to be expanded further now that we have the biggest hurdle of Phase 2 starting to fall, but the concern is that we are expanding just to justify broadening tax bases throughout the region versus actually focusing on the most dense and transit ready places in the urban core.

If you had two options fight for a KCMO only tax vs. regional bi-state tax with more focus on KS side, which do we think is more likely to pass? If we had a regional funding source, that may also cover 0-fare for bus also.

If you could just run to urban core of KCK and Overland Park, that doesn't seem that insurmountable by rail. I know this has been discussed before, but it seems like suburbanites are on board with the SC but not buses.

KCMO has no availible funding sources left other than a TDD or some infrastructure related options. The 2 main paths forwards, Regional Investment Distict and County Transit Authority, are on the county level.

Outside of the core, the rail discussion needs to be centered around Light Rail and to a lessor degree commuter. Streetcar as a mode isn't built for long distances and high speeds. Jackson County Commuter Rail, iirc under the CTA, polled pretty well. I think the first step is getting Jackson County going with some sort of rail/bus system and other counties will follow. Similar pathway was employed sucessfully by St. Louis and is proposed by Nashville and Austin. Rock Island row is in place but a connector to downtown is missing. Potentially Linwood/31st then Ghilliam into Crown Center or 71 into downtown could be used by a DMU or LRT. Troy Schulte was obviously very involved with KC Streetcar and Urban Rail in 2014. His current role at the county is a huge advantage for us.

As you mentioned, bus only has little support amongst the average voting suburbanites I speak with. Bring up streetcar(trains) and they talk about how much they love it. Something that amazes me is that Clay Chastain, with no marketing and only leaders saying to vote no, gets a solid 40% of the vote. That shows, in my mind, that a rail plan does have significant levels of support right off the bat. Albeit, his plans may exaggerate what can be built.

[normalthings]

The idea that the streetcar will just stay the same size permanently after the UMKC expansion is frankly horrifying. We have one of the few successful modern streetcars in the US and any notion that it won't be able to ever expand again is cruelly ironic and should be infinity depressing for everyone on here.

The idea of the streetcar not growing isn't horrible if done in conjunction with a wider spread LRT or Commuter system. If the idea is rail in KC stops after River-UMKC, we have a clear problem.

[flyingember]

St. Louis had the luck of having a continuous route into downtown from two directions that no one was using. The Jackson County plan had issues with the Rock Island corridor because both options into downtown were denied by the respective railroads and using city streets was dramatically more expensive.

What I picture is a commuter system to try and flip commuting patterns centered around jobs.

Jackson County isn't the easiest next step, that's Johnson County. A true BRT line between UMKC and the Mission Transit Center would be much simpler to implement and would connect people to a jobs center that's not further into the suburbs. With the limited signals on most of Shawnee Mission Pkwy and space to add a bus only lane it would be doable to give true signal priority to transit.

The incremental approach where the system grows by increasing demand because transit is working one step at a time seems like it's workable. Basically, build the local density of areas.


Houston's third round of expansion is a BRT route on a future rail corridor, with a design that can be upgraded to trains

[flyingember]

Something that amazes me is that Clay Chastain, with no marketing and only leaders saying to vote no, gets a solid 40% of the vote.

Only one rail plan has passed in a citywide vote, and it was a Chastain plan in 2006. The city vetoed it as unworkable and the smaller city replacement vote failed hard in KCMO and passed in NKC.

The next closest to citywide vote was the 2014 expansion and a Prospect MAX upgrade
The east side voted yes at the highest rate in precincts along the streetcar route while they didn't vote for the plan along the bus line any more than areas far from either mode.

Although expensive, a freeway running commuter system, like much of Dallas system, might be the only plan that could pass.

[KCPowercat]

The idea that the streetcar will just stay the same size permanently after the UMKC expansion is frankly horrifying. We have one of the few successful modern streetcars in the US and any notion that it won't be able to ever expand again is cruelly ironic and should be infinity depressing for everyone on here.

Isn't all that was said is the current funding methods couldn't be used?

[normalthings]

Something that amazes me is that Clay Chastain, with no marketing and only leaders saying to vote no, gets a solid 40% of the vote.

Only one rail plan has passed in a citywide vote, and it was a Chastain plan in 2006. The city vetoed it as unworkable and the smaller city replacement vote failed hard in KCMO and passed in NKC.

The next closest to citywide vote was the 2014 expansion and a Prospect MAX upgrade
The east side voted yes at the highest rate in precincts along the streetcar route while they didn't vote for the plan along the bus line any more than areas far from either mode.

Although expensive, a freeway running commuter system, like much of Dallas system, might be the only plan that could pass.

Yea Clay can never get a win but gets surpassingly good results (see 2016) with no marketing or support. During the 2016 presidential election, Clay's plan polled in Clay&Platte at the same rate (40% yes) that 2014 streetcar expansion did around the Plaza.

To me that reads that a solid 30-40% of voters in the city will automatically approve any rail plan put before them. When you put it like that, the gap to passing something wider reaching is really not all that far off. Infact, that is a better rate than the new KCI terminal had originally.

[DaveKCMO]

1) KCMO only sales tax *could* be used, but it wouldn't be pretty (take away from bus or just use the remaining 1/8-cent of authorization -- which wouldn't buy you much streetcar)

2) TDD value capture *could* legally be used, but there isn't a corridor that could support the cost of streetcar

[Highlander]

Great news for KC. What's the earliest we will see construction start? Where will the southern terminus be?

[shinatoo]

Great news for KC. What's the earliest we will see construction start? Where will the southern terminus be?

51st and Brookside.

[flyingember]

Great news for KC. What's the earliest we will see construction start? Where will the southern terminus be?

Late 2021 or early 2022.

There’s good information on the system website. There’s a multi hundred page document which includes construction details

https://kcstreetcar.org/about-streetcar ... extension/

The funding release has recent info

https://kcstreetcar.org/wp-content/uplo ... 262020.pdf

[TheLastGentleman]

Isn't all that was said is the current funding methods couldn't be used?

Seems like Dave often tells us not to expect any rail after Phase 2. I hope I'm misinterpreting him.

[DaveKCMO]

Isn't all that was said is the current funding methods couldn't be used?

Seems like Dave often tells us not to expect any rail after Phase 2. I hope I'm misinterpreting him.

You are not misinterpreting me. Do not expect rail after River to UMKC. It's not the end of the world. There's much work to be done just to introduce basic bus service to our sprawling region, rather than simply upgrading existing routes to rail.

[flyingember]

Updated schedule per a City Scene article. Looks like the sewer work is going to delay the start from what has been said.
Since a lot of utility work follows the sewer work the delay after it makes sense.

Utility work begins: Sep 2020
Water/Sewer work finished: July 2022
Track construction begins: Oct 2022
Delivery of 6th newest vehicle: Feb 2024
Construction complete: Sep 2024
Testing begins: Feb 2025
Opens: late 2025

https://cityscenekc.com/breaking-feds-g ... streetcar/

In five years from today we should be riding the expanded streetcar or have a date set

[DaveKCMO]

A bit more detail:

- Private utility work is underway now
- Water/sewer work begins in October https://www.kcwater.us/upgradesonmain/
- Project office for the extension will be located in the former Hostess offices Armour & Main

Updated rendering of Plaza station:

[horizons82]

Love the large canopies for the plaza stop. I wish the Union Station stops were retrofitted to include something like that.

[DaveKCMO]

Love the large canopies for the plaza stop. I wish the Union Station stops were retrofitted to include something like that.

Yeah, we just didn't know how popular it would be!

[KCPowercat]

A bit more detail:

- Private utility work is underway now
- Water/sewer work begins in October https://www.kcwater.us/upgradesonmain/
- Project office for the extension will be located in the former Hostess offices Armour & Main

Updated rendering of Plaza station:

Any lessons learned in the first phase that will be utilized in 2nd phase construction? Whether that's from the utility side, the approach of phased construction, etc? Should the water replacement extend further than it did downtown to avoid things like 2nd and main?