Man wouldn't that be cool? Close to Downtown, Kemper and proposed projects like the Rock Island Bridge
Also would be perfect if they brought back those MU/KU border war games
Yeah, this is the ONLY location I can see moving away from the TSC for. It makes a lot of sense. Moving to any other location is just off the charts stupid.
This location is close enough to downtown to take advantage of it, but not so close that it fucks it all up with parking and ten blocks of dead space. It's in both states so both can claim it and pay for it and it would really bring to life the whole west bottoms and river front recreation stuff now that the West Bottoms is coming back on its own organically.
When Kemper was built, the west bottoms or any of downtown actually, was not coming back and stadiums alone don't spur redevelopment, they deter it. You have to place a stadium near an area that is already redeveloping and I think the West Bottoms might be ready now.
Rusty Irish wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:32 pm
I don't see how an associated development district at TSC is viable with the Chiefs on their own. The surrounding area has been untouched for years even with an MLB team playing there also. Its just not a desirable area or high in growth. The draw is that you can quickly come off i-70 and get in and out as fast as possible. Which is nice in 1975, not 2022.
Its not like theres an existing base or cluster of other things in the area they can draw from to make it viable on the 350 days there aren't games or big events like training camp or the draft or play off games.
All the "districts" that are popping up around stadiums now have other things they can draw from to be viable year round. BPV has Blues/Arena, soon MLS games, the Arch and DTSTL. Titletown in GB has an arena and an expo center on its door step. The Battery in Atlanta has several corporate HQs and 81 baseball games. Arena District in Columbus has two teams and a Downtown location, Patriot Place has two teams and a rail link to one of the biggest cities in the country. Sofi has three teams there. Dallas two, Philly four.
In a metro like KC could a TSC development compete against P&L, the Plaza, JoCo, Village West etc? Only with the Royals also on board IMO.
People just will not get it through their heads that large stadiums and retail do not work well together at all. Not even a little bit. There is a reason nothing has been built near the TSC. But whatever. For some reason people's priority is to have a stupid little "entertainment district" next to the NFL stadium for some reason. Same people that want to take a freaking tram to KCI airport probably. It won't work, it will be stupid as hell and it's not even needed for Arrowhead.
My fear is dropping Buffalo Bills tax payer money for a carbon copy of what exists now. That would be a shiteload of money for a white elephant 350 days a year. If theres going to be a fortune spent and there will likely be because the team has such an emotional pull, either state will be able to rinse tax payers on this, I'd like to it act as an economic driver of some sorts, and even if thats just filling up an area with a high concentration of bars, restaurants and hotels for 10-12 weekends a year, and give people more of a reason to stay in the city if they are visiting if they can use the streetcar or walk from their hotel to a stadium. Your suggestion r.e. Gateway Complex is the best I've seen yet for all the reasons listed above.
shinatoo wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:21 pm
How would they handle the income and sales tax?
Just split it. Literally put the 50 yard line on state line. It would be the most unique stadium in the country. Sales and Income tax will all likely be recouped back to pay for the stadium anyway (Super TIF / STAR Bond etc).
Rusty Irish wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:32 pm
I don't see how an associated development district at TSC is viable with the Chiefs on their own. The surrounding area has been untouched for years even with an MLB team playing there also. Its just not a desirable area or high in growth. The draw is that you can quickly come off i-70 and get in and out as fast as possible. Which is nice in 1975, not 2022.
Its not like theres an existing base or cluster of other things in the area they can draw from to make it viable on the 350 days there aren't games or big events like training camp or the draft or play off games.
All the "districts" that are popping up around stadiums now have other things they can draw from to be viable year round. BPV has Blues/Arena, soon MLS games, the Arch and DTSTL. Titletown in GB has an arena and an expo center on its door step. The Battery in Atlanta has several corporate HQs and 81 baseball games. Arena District in Columbus has two teams and a Downtown location, Patriot Place has two teams and a rail link to one of the biggest cities in the country. Sofi has three teams there. Dallas two, Philly four.
In a metro like KC could a TSC development compete against P&L, the Plaza, JoCo, Village West etc? Only with the Royals also on board IMO.
People just will not get it through their heads that large stadiums and retail do not work well together at all. Not even a little bit. There is a reason nothing has been built near the TSC. But whatever. For some reason people's priority is to have a stupid little "entertainment district" next to the NFL stadium for some reason. Same people that want to take a freaking tram to KCI airport probably. It won't work, it will be stupid as hell and it's not even needed for Arrowhead.
My fear is dropping Buffalo Bills tax payer money for a carbon copy of what exists now. That would be a shiteload of money for a white elephant 350 days a year. If theres going to be a fortune spent and there will likely be because the team has such an emotional pull, either state will be able to rinse tax payers on this, I'd like to it act as an economic driver of some sorts, and even if thats just filling up an area with a high concentration of bars, restaurants and hotels for 10-12 weekends a year, and give people more of a reason to stay in the city if they are visiting if they can use the streetcar or walk from their hotel to a stadium. Your suggestion r.e. Gateway Complex is the best I've seen yet for all the reasons listed above.
But the gateway complex is not building something near a stadium, it's putting the stadium near something that will organically be a self sustaining living and entertainment district that will benefit from the stadium, not depend on it. From the gateway complex you can walk to anywhere in the WB where there will be actual bars and restaurants that are supported by the growing residential population down there.
Much better than trying to force some canned retail district next to a stadium.
Rusty Irish wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:32 pm
I don't see how an associated development district at TSC is viable with the Chiefs on their own. The surrounding area has been untouched for years even with an MLB team playing there also. Its just not a desirable area or high in growth. The draw is that you can quickly come off i-70 and get in and out as fast as possible. Which is nice in 1975, not 2022.
Its not like theres an existing base or cluster of other things in the area they can draw from to make it viable on the 350 days there aren't games or big events like training camp or the draft or play off games.
All the "districts" that are popping up around stadiums now have other things they can draw from to be viable year round. BPV has Blues/Arena, soon MLS games, the Arch and DTSTL. Titletown in GB has an arena and an expo center on its door step. The Battery in Atlanta has several corporate HQs and 81 baseball games. Arena District in Columbus has two teams and a Downtown location, Patriot Place has two teams and a rail link to one of the biggest cities in the country. Sofi has three teams there. Dallas two, Philly four.
In a metro like KC could a TSC development compete against P&L, the Plaza, JoCo, Village West etc? Only with the Royals also on board IMO.
People just will not get it through their heads that large stadiums and retail do not work well together at all. Not even a little bit. There is a reason nothing has been built near the TSC. But whatever. For some reason people's priority is to have a stupid little "entertainment district" next to the NFL stadium for some reason. Same people that want to take a freaking tram to KCI airport probably. It won't work, it will be stupid as hell and it's not even needed for Arrowhead.
But in an area like the Legends, you have soccer, NASCAR, Great Wolf Lodge already there spinning people in every day. The Chiefs wouldn’t have to anchor that retail. They could still feast off it though.
So in short, the Chiefs could get all the retail they want, not have to worry about paying for it, and therefore have more funds for an even better stadium instead of some bare bones shit.
Rusty Irish wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 1:32 pm
I don't see how an associated development district at TSC is viable with the Chiefs on their own. The surrounding area has been untouched for years even with an MLB team playing there also. Its just not a desirable area or high in growth. The draw is that you can quickly come off i-70 and get in and out as fast as possible. Which is nice in 1975, not 2022.
Its not like theres an existing base or cluster of other things in the area they can draw from to make it viable on the 350 days there aren't games or big events like training camp or the draft or play off games.
All the "districts" that are popping up around stadiums now have other things they can draw from to be viable year round. BPV has Blues/Arena, soon MLS games, the Arch and DTSTL. Titletown in GB has an arena and an expo center on its door step. The Battery in Atlanta has several corporate HQs and 81 baseball games. Arena District in Columbus has two teams and a Downtown location, Patriot Place has two teams and a rail link to one of the biggest cities in the country. Sofi has three teams there. Dallas two, Philly four.
In a metro like KC could a TSC development compete against P&L, the Plaza, JoCo, Village West etc? Only with the Royals also on board IMO.
People just will not get it through their heads that large stadiums and retail do not work well together at all. Not even a little bit. There is a reason nothing has been built near the TSC. But whatever. For some reason people's priority is to have a stupid little "entertainment district" next to the NFL stadium for some reason. Same people that want to take a freaking tram to KCI airport probably. It won't work, it will be stupid as hell and it's not even needed for Arrowhead.
But in an area like the Legends, you have soccer, NASCAR, Great Wolf Lodge already there spinning people in every day. The Chiefs wouldn’t have to anchor that retail. They could still feast off it though.
So in short, the Chiefs could get all the retail they want, not have to worry about paying for it, and therefore have more funds for an even better stadium instead of some bare bones shit.
It's just so far out of town out there. The TSC is close enough to downtown that most people that come to town for games stay downtown or the plaza. You put the stadium in western KCK and you are really going to hurt urban KCMO.
Not to mention that crap out there at village west is not even remotely appealing to anybody outside of rural tourists. I don't think the Chiefs are going to settle for a crappy budget stadium. They are smart enough to just stay where they are before they do that.
People just will not get it through their heads that large stadiums and retail do not work well together at all. Not even a little bit. There is a reason nothing has been built near the TSC. But whatever. For some reason people's priority is to have a stupid little "entertainment district" next to the NFL stadium for some reason. Same people that want to take a freaking tram to KCI airport probably. It won't work, it will be stupid as hell and it's not even needed for Arrowhead.
My fear is dropping Buffalo Bills tax payer money for a carbon copy of what exists now. That would be a shiteload of money for a white elephant 350 days a year. If theres going to be a fortune spent and there will likely be because the team has such an emotional pull, either state will be able to rinse tax payers on this, I'd like to it act as an economic driver of some sorts, and even if thats just filling up an area with a high concentration of bars, restaurants and hotels for 10-12 weekends a year, and give people more of a reason to stay in the city if they are visiting if they can use the streetcar or walk from their hotel to a stadium. Your suggestion r.e. Gateway Complex is the best I've seen yet for all the reasons listed above.
But the gateway complex is not building something near a stadium, it's putting the stadium near something that will organically be a self sustaining living and entertainment district that will benefit from the stadium, not depend on it. From the gateway complex you can walk to anywhere in the WB where there will be actual bars and restaurants that are supported by the growing residential population down there.
Much better than trying to force some canned retail district next to a stadium.
I don't know if you misunderstood me but I completely agree for the reasons you said! I was meaning building again in TSC like the Bills are in Orchard Park, NY with the tax payer being stiffed.
And what Axel says above I think is the most likely at this rate for the same reasons as him, but your scenario is obviously the most ideal to me in terms of being in a more transit friendly, walkable area and in close proximity to a well developed centralized district. How the two states would work together to thrash out a deal is compelling in itself. I suspect they are just as likely to oppose with KS being the main aggressor.
To the above. The Village West experience is shit and the supposed synergy it would provide is a massive red herring. I have country roots. I like to hunt. There is no way I'm rolling in the purchase of my new duck decoys at Cabelas with any of the sports infrastructure out there. It's just not happening. The existing chain restaurants out there don't make for any sort of pre-game experience. The Chiefs will still have to build that from scratch. The presence of some retail might draw a few people into Chiefs owned bars on non-gamedays or off season. It will not be enough to make any of it out there to remotely make sense.
AlkaliAxel wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:49 pm
GRID, im not saying we have to build at Village West. The West Bottoms are intriguing. Im just saying we need to get the fuck out of TSC.
I actually understand that sentiment even though I land towards disagreement but Village West would be soooo much worse.
Rusty Irish wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 2:25 pm
My fear is dropping Buffalo Bills tax payer money for a carbon copy of what exists now. That would be a shiteload of money for a white elephant 350 days a year. If theres going to be a fortune spent and there will likely be because the team has such an emotional pull, either state will be able to rinse tax payers on this, I'd like to it act as an economic driver of some sorts, and even if thats just filling up an area with a high concentration of bars, restaurants and hotels for 10-12 weekends a year, and give people more of a reason to stay in the city if they are visiting if they can use the streetcar or walk from their hotel to a stadium. Your suggestion r.e. Gateway Complex is the best I've seen yet for all the reasons listed above.
But the gateway complex is not building something near a stadium, it's putting the stadium near something that will organically be a self sustaining living and entertainment district that will benefit from the stadium, not depend on it. From the gateway complex you can walk to anywhere in the WB where there will be actual bars and restaurants that are supported by the growing residential population down there.
Much better than trying to force some canned retail district next to a stadium.
I don't know if you misunderstood me but I completely agree for the reasons you said! I was meaning building again in TSC like the Bills are in Orchard Park, NY with the tax payer being stiffed.
And what Axel says above I think is the most likely at this rate for the same reasons as him, but your scenario is obviously the most ideal to me in terms of being in a more transit friendly, walkable area and in close proximity to a well developed centralized district. How the two states would work together to thrash out a deal is compelling in itself. I suspect they are just as likely to oppose with KS being the main aggressor.
I get it.
The speedway site will get a LOT of attention because people in KC (especially the KS side) will love the idea. It will be easier to do by just STAR bonding everything out there and there is plenty of room to throw up a stadium and tons of parking.
But hopefully instead of that happening, KC and MO will step up and make something happen. The WB site would be far more complex, but has the potential be amazing and could be funded by the entire metro area.
The problems will be getting that gateway complex even though it's not being used that much. That and everybody will ask where will everybody park? Well, some parking could be provided, but for the most part, parking would be all over the WB and hopefully some sort of tram or bus system from downtown parking garages. There is still quite a bit of parking near Kemper though.
I agree it's hard to swallow building a 1.5 billion dollar stadium without it having more economic impact, but leaving the TSC for the deep KS suburbs will have an even worse impact on downtown KCMO. A nice stadium at the TSC at least makes transit into Jackson County make more sense and visitors are more likely to stay and visit downtown/midtown/plaza than if the stadium were at VW or JOCO where most will stay in suburban hotels. Rail Transit to Village West will NEVER happen. Too far. Too few people along the route.
Last edited by GRID on Tue Mar 29, 2022 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Another point in the Chiefs’ calculus: [Chiefs President] Donovan was ambivalent about Arrowhead area's potential for a stadium-adjacent, mixed-use real estate development such as the ones created by the Packers and the Patriots. Those projects are seen as a reliable way for sports franchises to diversify and expand their revenue associated with multi-billion dollar stadiums, and there may be spots in Kansas may work better for that.”
AlkaliAxel wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 3:07 pm
Tweet from a Sports Business Journal reporter:
“Another point in the Chiefs’ calculus: [Chiefs President] Donovan was ambivalent about Arrowhead area's potential for a stadium-adjacent, mixed-use real estate development such as the ones created by the Packers and the Patriots. Those projects are seen as a reliable way for sports franchises to diversify and expand their revenue associated with multi-billion dollar stadiums, and there may be spots in Kansas may work better for that.”
Wow…what a statement
Again Village West is the only area that ticks the boxes in terms of that statement - (I sound like a have hard on for the area), but from their point of view as you outlined, they'd pull in people on Sporting KC and race days and generally feed off Legends traffic to make it financially viable year round and theres a ton of cheap land. Sadly I also doubt the team gives a chit about urban development, its their bottom line. Plenty of land to throw up a Loews Hotel, an amphitheater, a bar mall and some value engineered stick apartments or offices they can make rent off of and all the parking you could want too.
I can't think of anywhere in JoCo that would fit in with the above statement by Donovan.
Rusty Irish wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 3:16 pm
Again Village West is the only area that ticks the boxes in terms of that statement - (I sound like a have hard on for the area), but from their point of view as you outlined, they'd pull in people on Sporting KC and race days and generally feed off Legends traffic to make it financially viable year round and theres a ton of cheap land. Sadly I also doubt the team gives a chit about urban development, its their bottom line. Plenty of land to throw up a Loews Hotel, an amphitheater, a bar mall and some value engineered stick apartments or offices they can make rent off of and all the parking you could want too.
I can't think of anywhere in JoCo that would fit in with the above statement by Donovan.
The logic makes sense. I don't deny it. I think where me and GRID get off is that there needs to be countervailing voices and some activism that demand a modicum of civic responsibility. If we want to talk about taxpayers (on either side of the state line) getting shafted then Village West would be a poster child for the kind of fraud and subsidy for entrenched interests that got foisted on KS taxpayers in years past and a new Chiefs stadium out there would only be insult to injury.
Is not worth getting too worked up over this until seeing what Kansas offers. A half-assed effort isn't going to cut it. If so formidable that the Chiefs view it as better than Arrowhead, then time to respond. KC, County and MO need to prepare for the possibility but if KS doesn't even make much of an effort... much ado about nuthin.
i would absolutely hate to see Arrowhead demolished but if there were a bi-state funding plan that would spread the Jackson County tax burden it could become a package deal that could help tax payers be more accepting of subsidies for a DTKC Royals stadium. on the KCK location note... Indian Springs or on their side of West Bottoms would be good but i think JoCo will also be a potential location. mind you Matt Donovan did mention possibly staying and building new on TSC or even keeping the stadium so nothing is set in stone.
earthling wrote: ↑Tue Mar 29, 2022 3:38 pm
Is not worth getting too worked up over this until seeing what Kansas offers. A half-assed effort isn't going to cut it. If so formidable that the Chiefs view it as better than Arrowhead, then time to respond. KC, County and MO need to prepare for the possibility but if KS doesn't even make much of an effort... much ado about nuthin.
It sounds to me like what Donovan is saying there that Kansas just has significantly better infrastructure for an NFL stadium & entertainment experience to use.
