KCRag Forum

Posted: **Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:41 pm**

^Agree it could be improved. Changing the tone of brick facade along Penn for each section could give an appearance closer to varying series of buildings if done right. Might have less of monotonous mega project feel.

Posted: **Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:50 pm**

GRID wrote: ↑Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:14 pm
earthling wrote: ↑Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:47 am Missed this key point...
He said the developers are not planning to seek tax incentives to help finance their plan.
https://cityscenekc.com/big-westport-mi ... and-hotel/
It's nice to see this developer not seeking incentives when they have a garage though. Unlike the proposed Bravo Hotel which also has an existing garage but they are also seeking incentives.

Yes, at least not asking for more incentives but agree existing large garage helps make it work. I wonder if it will still have public spaces or turned entirely private garage.

Posted: **Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:56 pm**

earthling wrote: ↑Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:50 pm
GRID wrote: ↑Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:14 pm
earthling wrote: ↑Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:47 am Missed this key point...

https://cityscenekc.com/big-westport-mi ... and-hotel/
It's nice to see this developer not seeking incentives when they have a garage though. Unlike the proposed Bravo Hotel which also has an existing garage but they are also seeking incentives.
Yes, at least not asking for more incentives but agree existing large garage helps make it work. I wonder if it will still have public spaces or turned entirely private garage.

I think the article mentioned public parking would still be available on some level/amount.

Posted: **Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:01 pm**

with a big new residential project perhaps going in and a hotel, going into what is the "heart" of Westport entertainment district. Will this help change the area up a little bit? I know there is the brand new residential at the corner of Westport Rd. and Broadway.

Curious if the area becomes more of a "rowdy Brookside" as opposed to the college town type of bars that are there now. Currently there is a good mix of fun bars and restaurants and I still enjoy all Westport has to offer. But now it's a place I tend to be out of by 11pm or Midnight before it gets too rowdy for my 47 yr old taste, LOL.

Posted: **Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:10 pm**

Increased residential density would more than offset revenue decline that would come from closing shop earlier in the night.

Posted: **Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:57 pm**

Since this project technically existed before the City's affordable housing mandate, doesn't that help with the spreadsheet as well?

Posted: **Wed Sep 08, 2021 3:02 pm**

FangKC wrote: ↑Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:57 pm Since this project technically existed before the City's affordable housing mandate, doesn't that help with the spreadsheet as well?

No incentives, no requirement

Posted: **Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:00 pm**

moderne wrote: ↑Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:36 pm Glad to see this happen, but the appearance reminds me of an old multiple winged hospital conversion. Like the designer took inspiration from 31st and Baltimore.

I think this will start being a common complaint on this board. As projects start to not need incentives, the city also has less say in what they look like and what the end product will be. Developers will have to start asking the question, "Do I ask for incentives and have the city make demands on the project or do I not ask for incentives and have the project not look as nice?". Eventually, as demand continues to increase you'll get both quality projects without incentives. Might be a decade off though.

Posted: **Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:29 pm**

beautyfromashes wrote: ↑Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:00 pm
moderne wrote: ↑Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:36 pm Glad to see this happen, but the appearance reminds me of an old multiple winged hospital conversion. Like the designer took inspiration from 31st and Baltimore.
I think this will start being a common complaint on this board. As projects start to not need incentives, the city also has less say in what they look like and what the end product will be. Developers will have to start asking the question, "Do I ask for incentives and have the city make demands on the project or do I not ask for incentives and have the project not look as nice?". Eventually, as demand continues to increase you'll get both quality projects without incentives. Might be a decade off though.

These are the same developers who brought us the Mirrabel project in the North Plaza neighborhood. I don’t think a lack of incentives play any role in their lack of taste.

Posted: **Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:08 pm**

Projects without incentives still have to submit to a plan review and have to comply with zoning. In some areas with an overlay, they'll be subject to specific materials.

Posted: **Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:15 pm**

DaveKCMO wrote: ↑Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:08 pm Projects without incentives still have to submit to a plan review and have to comply with zoning. In some areas with an overlay, they'll be subject to specific materials.

Yes, but approval is so much easier without incentives and giving the cash (rightfully) causes council people to feel they can ask for more concessions.

Posted: **Thu Sep 09, 2021 1:16 am**

GRID wrote: ↑Wed Sep 08, 2021 1:14 pm
earthling wrote: ↑Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:47 am Missed this key point...
He said the developers are not planning to seek tax incentives to help finance their plan.
https://cityscenekc.com/big-westport-mi ... and-hotel/
That's because they have an existing garage. The primary reason these projects need incentives is to help offset the cost of building structured or underground parking. Structured parked is the most expensive part of these types of developments and is what makes them so hard to make the numbers work.

It's the same reason why there are new apartments going up next to the Kemper Arena parking garage. That garage is no longer needed for the arena, so the city worked out a deal to use it for new apartments making that project doable. Now there are more apartments going up on the KS side that will also use that garage. If that garage was not there, those apartments would not be there without major incentives from the city to build a new garage.

It's also why the Hyatt House (which is now stalled) also did not seek incentives. They are going to lease a nearby existing garage.

So it's not like this means developers won't need incentives in the future.

Incentives for urban projects in KCMO are still 1000 times better than incentives for suburban projects which are common in the KC area. And it's also better than suburban sprawl which are heavily subsidized indirectly through low density infrastructure.

If KCMO becomes more urban and walkable and transit friendly and less car dependent, then incentives are worth it till it reaches a critical density and price point that the incentives are no longer needed. KC is still a ways from that though.

It's nice to see this developer not seeking incentives when they have a garage though. Unlike the proposed Bravo Hotel which also has an existing garage but they are also seeking incentives.

Interested in seeing what flag this hotel will be.

Hotel Bravo is building at 5 star costs and with 5 star operational expenses with the expectation they will make no more than our current best hotels in KC. The untested market does not allow them to get financing without projecting room rates in the ball park of current hotel stock.

Posted: **Thu Sep 09, 2021 1:21 am**

I think a trendy hotel would do quite well hear. Similar to the crossroads hotel. I definitely think the traditional five or four stars should stay on the plaza or downtown

Posted: **Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:13 am**

There is another thread on this specific project: viewtopic.php?t=20290

I'm just glad it's apparently not vaporware. I don't mind the all brick look, they want it to blend with this historica area and it's a big improvements from the previous renders in that thread.

Posted: **Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:22 am**

Even with incentives projects, the city doesn't often get into the aesthetics of a building in a substantial way. It's almost always about materials only. We might all have the Katz building in mind, but I suspect the city's default on design will be closer to Waddell & Reed, where they couldn't be bothered to ask for a decent street level experience.

On this I'm not sure that making it brick actually makes an 6-7 stories taller than its surroundings blend in - not any more than the brick strip mall a block west blends in. Not to say that it's too tall, only that the scale difference makes materials relationships a little tough to pull off.

Posted: **Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:22 am**

Nothing will change unless ownership changes.

Posted: **Tue Sep 14, 2021 10:54 am**

When the sidewalks were vacated, it was because the businesses decided that they didn't want to change how they operated. The sidewalk vacation pushed the district's crime problems from the street outside the bars to the streets surrounding Westport. I'd expect these kinds of crimes to continue to happen.

Posted: **Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:44 am**

It's almost like the sidewalk vacation plan was more of a land grab by the businesses and not an actual crime reduction strategy.

Posted: **Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:29 pm**

It probably doesn't help that Missouri has gun laws that allow practically anyone to have an open carry, concealed carry gun without permits, background checks, anything.

Posted: **Tue Sep 14, 2021 8:47 pm**

FangKC wrote: ↑Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:29 pm It probably doesn't help that Missouri has gun laws that allow practically anyone to have an open carry, concealed carry gun without permits, background checks, anything.

There are plenty of neighborhoods without rampant gun play. It's about content!

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