KCRag Forum

langosta wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 11:00 pm And our bid is <50% of what Cincinnati and Cleveland put up this year for BA and EL

We can’t beat Cleveland?!? Tell me we aren’t below Cleveland as a city.

beautyfromashes wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 11:59 pm

langosta wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 11:00 pm And our bid is <50% of what Cincinnati and Cleveland put up this year for BA and EL

We can’t beat Cleveland?!? Tell me we aren’t below Cleveland as a city.

It's because we need Kansas to match another half of it (and are waiting on them basically AFAIK)

TheUrbanRoo wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 12:59 am

beautyfromashes wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 11:59 pm

langosta wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 11:00 pm And our bid is <50% of what Cincinnati and Cleveland put up this year for BA and EL

We can’t beat Cleveland?!? Tell me we aren’t below Cleveland as a city.

It's because we need Kansas to match another half of it (and are waiting on them basically AFAIK)

"Waiting on Kansas to pay their fair share" should be put on the KCMO's seal.

TheUrbanRoo wrote: ↑Sat Aug 26, 2023 12:59 am

beautyfromashes wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 11:59 pm

langosta wrote: ↑Fri Aug 25, 2023 11:00 pm And our bid is <50% of what Cincinnati and Cleveland put up this year for BA and EL

We can’t beat Cleveland?!? Tell me we aren’t below Cleveland as a city.

It's because we need Kansas to match another half of it (and are waiting on them basically AFAIK)

I think KS match will help….will it seal the deal? That is the big question. If you work for any of the carriers KC is trying to land, you have a plethora of incentive packages to choose from. In the same vein, you also have limited aircraft, possible pilot shortages, etc. so a lot more goes into the planning. I want nothing more for KC to land something and was pumped when Iceland Air took a chance - but I am trying to temper my expectations too.

Is the data published showing how many passengers transferred in the airport? The data they publish monthly only shows how many got on and off a plane.

KCPowercat wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 9:41 am Is the data published showing how many passengers transferred in the airport? The data they publish monthly only shows how many got on and off a plane.

You would have to do a little massaging but the FAA does post this https://www.transtats.bts.gov/Tables.as ... 0%FDf748rB is the data set. Here is an overview of what you get and how it works: https://airlab.fiu.edu/data-overview-th ... rvey-db1b/

hartliss wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 2:52 pm

KCPowercat wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 9:41 am Is the data published showing how many passengers transferred in the airport? The data they publish monthly only shows how many got on and off a plane.

You would have to do a little massaging but the FAA does post this https://www.transtats.bts.gov/Tables.as ... 0%FDf748rB is the data set. Here is an overview of what you get and how it works: https://airlab.fiu.edu/data-overview-th ... rvey-db1b/

Looks like the data is stale

KCI on track for 11.3 million passengers this year.

https://www.kshb.com/news/local-news/pa ... er-opening

More than Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Indianapolis and….Cleveland.

trexel94 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 7:38 pm KCI on track for 11.3 million passengers this year.

https://www.kshb.com/news/local-news/pa ... er-opening

beautyfromashes wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 8:45 pm More than Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Indianapolis and….Cleveland.

trexel94 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 7:38 pm KCI on track for 11.3 million passengers this year.

https://www.kshb.com/news/local-news/pa ... er-opening

2019 Graphic but gets the point across.

MCI vs. IND

IND had >double the incentive KC had, Delta had a focused operation at IND, and their route being a few hundred miles shorter increased RASM

MCI vs. CLE: CLE offered > double the incentive KC had, within A321 range of Dublin, route is hundreds of miles shorter increasing RASM vs. KC route.





Edit:

1. London is Kansas City's largest destination for O&D and provides significant connecting operations.
2. Travelers self connecting in other cities to Europe are low yield pax. They are not relevant to direct flight attraction and likely would not use the direct flight (prices for a direct are similar if not at a premium to connections).
3. Competing cities offered incentives AND business support (ticket and cargo purchase agreements)

Stay tuned for Sept 12th. Supposedly Lufthansa Group will be announcing new service specially to a North American city with no current European service. Not sure if it includes Canada. I would imagine we're a contender as we have a decent amount of traffic to Germany and the Governor/Justin has been meeting with them increasingly but there are other viable cities.

Indianapolis
San Antonio
Columbus, OH

trexel94 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 11:34 pm Stay tuned for Sept 12th. Supposedly Lufthansa Group will be announcing new service specially to a North American city with no current European service. Not sure if it includes Canada. I would imagine we're a contender as we have a decent amount of traffic to Germany and the Governor/Justin has been meeting with them increasingly but there are other viable cities.

Indianapolis
San Antonio
Columbus, OH

It does include Canada and Mexico.

dev49 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 11:41 pm

trexel94 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 11:34 pm Stay tuned for Sept 12th. Supposedly Lufthansa Group will be announcing new service specially to a North American city with no current European service. Not sure if it includes Canada. I would imagine we're a contender as we have a decent amount of traffic to Germany and the Governor/Justin has been meeting with them increasingly but there are other viable cities.

Indianapolis
San Antonio
Columbus, OH

It does include Canada and Mexico.

Pretty much every Canadian and Mexican city of size has a Europe flight which naturally limits this to U.S.

langosta wrote: ↑Wed Aug 30, 2023 10:03 am

hartliss wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 2:52 pm

KCPowercat wrote: ↑Tue Aug 29, 2023 9:41 am Is the data published showing how many passengers transferred in the airport? The data they publish monthly only shows how many got on and off a plane.

You would have to do a little massaging but the FAA does post this https://www.transtats.bts.gov/Tables.as ... 0%FDf748rB is the data set. Here is an overview of what you get and how it works: https://airlab.fiu.edu/data-overview-th ... rvey-db1b/

Looks like the data is stale

Correct, typically a lag. They currently have it uploaded through March 2023

trexel94 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 11:34 pm Stay tuned for Sept 12th. Supposedly Lufthansa Group will be announcing new service specially to a North American city with no current European service. Not sure if it includes Canada. I would imagine we're a contender as we have a decent amount of traffic to Germany and the Governor/Justin has been meeting with them increasingly but there are other viable cities.

Indianapolis
San Antonio
Columbus, OH

Similar to post above…who has the most $$$ to pony up. LH is tough..as STL already has service and they likely don’t want to cannibalize the catchment area but I suppose the incentives tied to the state could make it appealing - who knows.

I give KC less than 30% as being a part of this IMO. I hope I am wrong.

Would love to have them as they are a Star Alliance partner.

hartliss wrote: ↑Sat Sep 02, 2023 9:52 am

trexel94 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 01, 2023 11:34 pm Stay tuned for Sept 12th. Supposedly Lufthansa Group will be announcing new service specially to a North American city with no current European service. Not sure if it includes Canada. I would imagine we're a contender as we have a decent amount of traffic to Germany and the Governor/Justin has been meeting with them increasingly but there are other viable cities.

Indianapolis
San Antonio
Columbus, OH

Similar to post above…who has the most $$$ to pony up. LH is tough..as STL already has service and they likely don’t want to cannibalize the catchment area but I suppose the incentives tied to the state could make it appealing - who knows.

I give KC less than 30% as being a part of this IMO. I hope I am wrong.

I doubt the catchment areas really bleed. Lufthansa from STL is almost always the more expensive option from STL to Europe. Most people
Would find it cheaper to fly a connecting route as is.

Do New Aer Lingus Cities Hurt Kansas City Hopes?

What Europe options are left for MCI?

Among what I would call Tier 1 options there remain these:

- Iceland is probably most likely with two carriers to choose from and past service on the route. I’d bet MCI could get the route for even next year if they were willing to use their incentive bankroll on Iceland rather than a top 4 Europe hub.
- Delta or Air France JV partner to Paris, or less likely KLM to Amsterdam (AMS). Delta wants to own MCI, but pesky American is in the way in terms of legacy carriers. Europe would be a well-reasoned knock out punch with corporate clients and a retaliation to the AA/BA JV entering Cincinnati-Europe against Delta. I think AMS is less likely because of limited local traffic and the slot culling on its way at AMS due to noise and green efforts. Paris is also a good option in a leisure based long haul market post-COVID.
- American or British Airways to London (LHR). I think this might have happened already if not for COVID. MCI is the kind of market that took a hit from the decline of business traffic to Europe. MCI is not a big destination from Europe and London has also been suffering on tourism so the time probably isn’t right.
- Lufthansa flying to St Louis killed any chance of United or Lufthansa for a long time IMHO.

Interesting short read…
https://www.patreon.com/posts/do-new-ae ... 38784?l=de

So basically we're just getting Iceland and then we're not gonna be able to get anything else in Europe for years because of that.

The analysis quoted above is accurate -- Lufthansa is not going to double dip in Missouri. Delta kind of smacked AA by building its SkyClub here. They could do a Paris flight, but what businesses are left with a continental travel linkage? Marion Labs/ Hoechst/ Roussel Uclaf is kaput in KC. Bayer sold its big operation here. Much of the rest of Corporate KC is domestically/ Canada/ Mexico oriented.

London seems likeliest, but AA would almost certainly need to put in a club. BA would need some corporate demand, and I just don't see that in KC now. Some other shoe needs to drop -- a financial services company relocating to KC would do it, or a British subsidiary relocating here.