KCRag Forum

Where the hell were you all during the public comment period? The ship has sailed.

DaveKCMO wrote: ↑Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:16 pm Where the hell were you all during the public comment period? The ship has sailed.

Well, I don't live there. I just figured planners would push a dedicated center lane hard. You would basically have light rail infrastructure in the core of the city at that point and a really nice spine to feed into. Running them in a shared lane on the curb is like calling MAX a BRT system. I'm sure it's mostly to make the Main St businesses happy so they can have a few parking spots, but I also think everybody will wonder what were they thinking many years after it opens and blame the city for such a poor design later. They always do.

It is what it is. It will still be a nice streetcar line, but that's all it will be. I'm just not sure how it will be all that much better than the current Main St MAX bus. Actually it could be worse. That's a long stretch of potential blocked track that MAX buses don't have to worry about.

GRID wrote: ↑Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:10 pm I'm just not sure how it will be all that much better than the current Main St MAX bus. Actually it could be worse. That's a long stretch of potential blocked track that MAX buses don't have to worry about.

By having dramatically higher capacity, a smoother ride, more frequent service off peak, longer operating hours, better support for disabled riders with level boarding and seating, better bicycle support

Downtown has dramatically more traffic than midtown and traffic is managed fine. The train *creates* more traffic than it sees. Most of it's traffic issue is caused by the river market on weekends and that's something the busses have problems with too.

I think the hesitance of this city to take meaningful space from automobiles is why we've gone curb-running. Our system will continue to be very nice, but I think it would be stronger if it were center-running. Best case we eliminate parking in the future and dedicate that space to bicycles which would (I think) allow us to dedicate the curb lane to streetcar.

smh wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:05 pm I think the hesitance of this city to take meaningful space from automobiles is why we've gone curb-running. Our system will continue to be very nice, but I think it would be stronger if it were center-running. Best case we eliminate parking in the future and dedicate that space to bicycles which would (I think) allow us to dedicate the curb lane to streetcar.

That sounds like a horrible idea.

Curb running vs center doesn't really connect to parking, it has to do with turns. Right turns can be shared with straight in the traffic cycle while center running impacts left turns

There's already no parking alongside for large portions of the route.

5th from Walnut to Grand, Delaware south of 5th, nearly the whole 700-1200 and 1400 blocks on both sides and Grand north of 400. That's basically half the route with a dedicated curbside lane.

The problems we have is enforcement. Code already says 10 feet from every corner is no parking. With curb cuts this doesn't give much street parking to some blocks.

smh wrote: ↑Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:05 pm I think the hesitance of this city to take meaningful space from automobiles is why we've gone curb-running.

Exactly. And the city owns the system.

My request was that the center-running option not be watered down (because otherwise why waste the political capital if it won't be more effective than curb?), knowing that it might not resonate with stakeholders. I don't regret that.

tower wrote: ↑Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:55 pm ^I feel like some of the information the streetcar authority put out was very pro outside-running, especially this matrix, which was one of the first things put out about the differences: http://kcstreetcar.org/wp-content/uploa ... Maps-8.pdf

And it seems like dedicated lanes were never discussed.

Yeah, all those stars they added to show what option "works better" kind of indicated to me that they'd already made up their mind and wanted to steer the public into agreeing.

I think you have to decide the purpose of this extension: Is it to get workers living on the Plaza, Brookside and UMKC to jobs DT? Or, is it a development vehicle for Midtown that will spur restaurants, shopping and other amenities along the line while increasing neighborhood home value? The orientation will likely be dictated by your answer.

Also, MainCor (now Midtown KC Now) wanted the same eco devo impact downtown got, which lead them to focus on the lane choice (and we didn't have any proof that center-running would have the exact same impact).

The folks that obsess with getting from the plaza to downtown as quickly as possible are following the same muse that came up with SW Trafficway and 71 highway.

grovester wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:04 pm The folks that obsess with getting from the plaza to downtown as quickly as possible are following the same muse that came up with SW Trafficway and 71 highway.

Yep, if you want to get there faster, order another train. It would cut the trip time more than center vs. side.

beautyfromashes wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:31 pm I think you have to decide the purpose of this extension: Is it to get workers living on the Plaza, Brookside and UMKC to jobs DT? Or, is it a development vehicle for Midtown that will spur restaurants, shopping and other amenities along the line while increasing neighborhood home value? The orientation will likely be dictated by your answer.

It's not just for Brookside to get to jobs downtown, it also can be for northlanders to get to jobs on the Plaza. There's no single bus route that goes from north of the river to the plaza today.

Jobs is the #1 item we need in the city. Jobs will drive everything else that needs to be done.

flyingember wrote: ↑ It's not just for Brookside to get to jobs downtown, it also can be for northlanders to get to jobs on the Plaza. There's no single bus route that goes from north of the river to the plaza today.

Jobs is the #1 item we need in the city. Jobs will drive everything else that needs to be done.

As you know, the streetcar doesn’t connect to the Northland. You’re thinking that people would drive from Liberty and park and then get in a train for the last 10 miles? Possible. I guess I don’t see suburban KCians doing it though. For me, I think the streetcar is to consolidate all the density and entertainment and the best shopping...”life”, into the core of the city. If people want to be where the action is, they will need to move back to the heart of the city. Sorry Northland.

flyingember wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:28 pm

beautyfromashes wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:31 pm I think you have to decide the purpose of this extension: Is it to get workers living on the Plaza, Brookside and UMKC to jobs DT? Or, is it a development vehicle for Midtown that will spur restaurants, shopping and other amenities along the line while increasing neighborhood home value? The orientation will likely be dictated by your answer.

It's not just for Brookside to get to jobs downtown, it also can be for northlanders to get to jobs on the Plaza. There's no single bus route that goes from north of the river to the plaza today.

Jobs is the #1 item we need in the city. Jobs will drive everything else that needs to be done.

Correct me if I"m wrong, I think he was referencing the kicked around streetcar extension to the Isle of Capri that could also function as a park and ride.

beautyfromashes wrote: ↑Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:38 pm

flyingember wrote: ↑ It's not just for Brookside to get to jobs downtown, it also can be for northlanders to get to jobs on the Plaza. There's no single bus route that goes from north of the river to the plaza today.

Jobs is the #1 item we need in the city. Jobs will drive everything else that needs to be done.

As you know, the streetcar doesn’t connect to the Northland. You’re thinking that people would drive from Liberty and park and then get in a train for the last 10 miles? Possible. I guess I don’t see suburban KCians doing it though. For me, I think the streetcar is to consolidate all the density and entertainment and the best shopping...”life”, into the core of the city. If people want to be where the action is, they will need to move back to the heart of the city. Sorry Northland.

There's a commuter bus from Liberty to downtown. It shows a lot that you didn't bring this up as an option people would use to get to the streetcar.

flyingember wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:22 am There's a commuter bus from Liberty to downtown. It shows a lot that you didn't bring this up as an option people would use to get to the streetcar.

The point is that should we be making choices based on the few poor souls commuting from Liberty to the Plaza and their commute times or those in the neighborhood looking for streetcar to increase the standing of their neighborhood and prompt development?

beautyfromashes wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:55 am

flyingember wrote: ↑Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:22 am There's a commuter bus from Liberty to downtown. It shows a lot that you didn't bring this up as an option people would use to get to the streetcar.

The point is that should we be making choices based on the few poor souls commuting from Liberty to the Plaza and their commute times or those in the neighborhood looking for streetcar to increase the standing of their neighborhood and prompt development?

Why not? Your taxes pay for multi-billion dollar freeway widenings just as easily if you don't improve bus service into the suburbs.

there was once what amounts to an electric streetcar from downtown Liberty to downtown Kansas City. The bridge structure it used to get downtown still exists.

When will hear back on the federal funds?

normalthings wrote: ↑Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:14 am When will hear back on the federal funds?

This month.