KCRag Forum

Ugh. I did not mean to start a JoCo vs. KC debate today.

Sixty years ago Dallas and Atlanta were peer cities of KC. Now Omaha and Des Moines are becoming the peer cities. Both have downtown workers as percentage of total population that blow KC away. An argument that an outsize downtown tower is bad is negated by the example of IDS in Minneapolis. In 1970 the tallest building there was about as tall as KCPL. Then the IDS went up and did indeed look out of balance. But that spectacular landmark spurred other towers of similar height and numerous others still larger than anything in KC.

moderne wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:16 pm Sixty years ago Dallas and Atlanta were peer cities of KC. Now Omaha and Des Moines are becoming the peer cities. Both have downtown workers as percentage of total population that blow KC away. An argument that an outsize downtown tower is bad is negated by the example of IDS in Minneapolis. In 1970 the tallest building there was about as tall as KCPL. Then the IDS went up and did indeed look out of balance. But that spectacular landmark spurred other towers of similar height and numerous others still larger than anything in KC.

*rolls eyes at Des Moines comment*

Except Dallas has more suburban office space than even KC.

earthling wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:34 pm

GRID wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:02 pm JoCo killed urban KCMO.

Or KCMO killed KCMO and JoCo benefited. Spin it as you wish but you imply that KCMO made no mistakes. KCMO made many massive mistakes over many decades once the golden years ended. Jeff City was too focused on STL and Topeka and KS side was ready to exploit it.

KC is not a notable corporate town (what there has been is slipping away with buyouts) and doesn't have high risk taking developers so needs to make the most of it, whether downtown or elsewhere in metro. Downtown needs to focus on adding more residents that will help spur more incremental office to follow. It will be fine (and is fine) with that approach. Getting large boosts for new towers would be a plus but not getting them doesn't define failure at all. Mid-size infill over time is not a bad approach given there isn't likely to be anything to drive towers moving forward.

What matters is creating a lively work/life environment and the core is improving. Streetcar to Plaza/UMKC will create a really nice stretch that will tie together with more infill, tall towers or not. Would much rather live/work in KCs consistently improving but not booming urban core than in a boomtown like Austin or Nashville.

Yeah. It's been evident to me since I joined here last summer, but there is just a massive canyon of a generational gap on how the older generation and younger generation views KC and see it in a different light- plenty of them on Rag too. And I get it, they grew up with a different...landscape. But it's just colossal how many more young people wear KC on their sleeve and are proud and optimistic about KC's place than the older generation. You see it in the mindset alot of new generation companies who "believe" in downtown and have civic pride, and then older firms that think like "nobody wants to be downtown, it's a hellhole!" and just seek suburban profit over civic pride. A different KC is just ingrained into each of these generations that they've seen in their lives.

By what measure were ATL, Dallas, and KC peers in 1960? What measure are we now saying it's KC, Omaha, Des Moines?

KC, Atlanta, and Dallas were peers in population, influence and national prominence. Dallas population surpassed KC greatly in the postwar years, Atlanta not until the sixties. Said Omaha, Des Moine "becoming" peers, due to dynamism of central city.

moderne wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:44 pm KC, Atlanta, and Dallas were peers in population, influence and national prominence. Dallas population surpassed KC greatly in the postwar years, Atlanta not until the sixties. Said Omaha, Des Moine "becoming" peers, due to dynamism of central city.

Omaha is one giant tower and a few low-rises surrounded by a ton of parking lots. I would not say they have a dynamic central city by any stretch. The height of the tallest building does not a DT make.

^This

beautyfromashes wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:52 pm

moderne wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:44 pm KC, Atlanta, and Dallas were peers in population, influence and national prominence. Dallas population surpassed KC greatly in the postwar years, Atlanta not until the sixties. Said Omaha, Des Moine "becoming" peers, due to dynamism of central city.

Omaha is one giant tower and a few low-rises surrounded by a ton of parking lots. I would not say they have a dynamic central city by any stretch. The height of the tallest building does not a DT make.

And if you could comprehend what I'm saying you would understand better.

It's about KC's lack of any real corporate presence downtown. The fact that KC has the lowest percent of people working downtown than any other metro in the entire country except I think San Antonio, but they were neck and neck. If it were not for KC being one of the largest federal government employers in the country, the city's downtown would be much worse than it is.

You don't think everybody here would take two 20 story buildings? It's not about the freaking skyline.

But keep making it about a skyscraper if that makes you feel better. This is why KC gets excited over 6 story buildings on top of ten story garages. 30-40 story towers filled with KC companies that have some civic pride? That's not a thing in KC.

By the way, the largest building in Downtown Omaha is not a skyscraper, yet as a corporate HQ for BNSF, it's just as important. Omaha companies seem to want to be downtown for the most part. At least some of the larger ones do.

And as much as I love KC and it has seen a lot of development. The downtown is not that much bigger or that much more dense than Downtown Omaha. Much of the loop is still parking lots. The only way KCMO really pulls ahead is when you include the larger downtown crown center area. Downtown KC inside the loop is just not that big and its' only dense for a few blocks.

Such a sensitive response for a simple statement. Curious. Have some connection to Omaha? I just get the feeling that Omaha (and perhaps people from there) have a bit of an inferiority complex that they have to build a giant building surrounded by absolute nothingness. It’s Middle Eastern almost. Trying to prove something. “We’re here! We’re big! No, really” it all seems a bit sad.

moderne wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:44 pm KC, Atlanta, and Dallas were peers in population, influence and national prominence. Dallas population surpassed KC greatly in the postwar years, Atlanta not until the sixties. Said Omaha, Des Moine "becoming" peers, due to dynamism of central city.

We once looked at Nashville and Austin how we look at Omaha and Des Moines today.

Your JoCo HQs are predominantly sub-10 story office buildings. When we think downtown office, all that gets proposed are high-rise towers. These come at a cost premium over mid-rise and low-rise construction. Building up mid-rise office in East Crossroads/18th Vine or Riverfront may be a good strategy to get the ball rolling. Would certainly be more cost-competitive with the suburbs than trophy towers.

normalthings wrote: ↑Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:16 am

moderne wrote: ↑Wed Jan 26, 2022 4:44 pm KC, Atlanta, and Dallas were peers in population, influence and national prominence. Dallas population surpassed KC greatly in the postwar years, Atlanta not until the sixties. Said Omaha, Des Moine "becoming" peers, due to dynamism of central city.

We once looked at Nashville and Austin how we look at Omaha and Des Moines today.

Exactly.

Those were small cities. Visiting those cities in the 1980's and 90's was like going to Omaha. I never imagined they would do what they are today. I'm not saying KC should be Nashville or Austin, I'm saying cities can take off out nowhere.

I really think KC could be a city that would at least see dramatic downtown growth. All it would take is for downtown to capture more of the commercial growth that is still happening in the suburbs, mostly Johnson County where they are still building hundreds of thousands of sq ft office space every year.

Another thing about downtown KC. So many of the towers of downtown used to be office buildings. From the art deco towers of 909 Walnut and KCPL to the Commerce Tower to the Traders on Grand to the relatively modern Wallstreet tower. Yet at the same time, downtown has added almost no new office space in a span of 20-30 years. H&R Block and 2600 Grand being the main exceptions. Downtown is down to just a handful of major office buildings.

Downtown KCMO used to be a major employment center in relation to the metro area. While it's starting to become residential, it needs employment again. That's why downtown KC has so few hotel rooms etc as well. It also has to hurt the ability to charge rents high enough to justify new construction high rise residential beyond the highly subsidized Light towers.

All I'm saying is downtown KC desperately needs more companies to move back downtown. It doesn't have to be one company in a 40 floor building, but is sure would help downtown KC if a metro area company built a 40 story building. That's a few thousand more people coming to one block of downtown every day while many downtowners drive to suburban jobs, some will live there, some will come downtown more often since they know the area better. It would inject more pride in the city. The company in the building will have a vested interest in downtown and might donate to downtown issues or simply be in favor of things such as a 670 cap or a downtown stadium.

A main reason is downtown KCMO simply can not compete with suburban office space when suburban office space is also subsidized. Then on top of that KCMO city government makes it very difficult to get incentives when you can easily get them in Overland Park with no questions asked. It looks like the same thing is about to happen with residential development.

KCMO government and residents have to understand that if they want development at all in the city, they are going to have to give tax breaks. And giving tax break for urban development is still a win for the city in the long run.

I agree with GRID that downtown needs to filled with companies and tap into the residential boom that has occurred. It is a shame that Waddel & Reed sold their company to the group in France (or where ever). That building, for all of it's warts. Could have been a nice start or catalyst to spurn more development downtown with a big HQ being added. But they sold out, good for them and I hope they now have money to be wealthy for generations. I can't fault them for selling.

I hope there will be positive things for downtown with KC Southern and the Canada railroad merger. I recall reading it may be a nice gain for the KC in terms of jobs and such, but we shall see. Same with Oracle and what may happen there. I'm also hopefully that some of the other start ups and smaller companies continue to thrive and get bigger and either stay & expand downtown or look to re-locate there.

New blood in KCMO council would be nice, one that embraces and more probusiness and pro-development stance. I think the current group sees the importance but lacks the vision or leadership to steward forward. I think the current city manager is an asset to these things but has to deal with individuals that maybe are misguided or to influenced by outside factors to make sound policy. IMO the mayor is more interested on his next step politically and making choices based on "low hanging fruit" policy points to get him to that next level. He's going to ride the wave of citizens that in principle love what he has to say but when that wave crashes on the shore there is going to be a big mess and you potentially will be worse off than when you started. But with all this we shall see. I think Lucas is a dynamic person, and has good leadership chops but I'm not sure if he has the ability to deal with the complexity of issues that require a much more central/moderate viewpoint overall, while still leaning slightly to the left when it's all said and done. I hope for the sake of our city we can continue to march forward and I think we will see more traction this year as COVID fades. That will be the test for everyone on moving forward.

Couldn't this same argument be used in reverse? St Louis has a huge corporate presence, lots of fortune 1000 companies are located in St Louis, corporate involvement with St Louis based companies when it comes to cultural amenities is huge, enterprise car rental founders are building a stadium for the MLS team but there is not a whole lot of companies HQ in downtown STL, most of them are in Clayton or along the 64/270/170 corridor. There is a ton of civic pride and civic donors among st louis companies but they are just not downtown. So the whole argument that we need companies downtown for civic pride sake is bullshit and worthless.

Even most of the big companies in Dallas and Atlanta are not even downtown, Frito Lay, Kimberly Clark, Exon, a ton of other big companies are all in Irving or Plano, UPS, Coke, Home Depot are all north of Downtown Atlanta.

Frankly any of these companies deciding to building a huge sears tower like structure for Home Depot or Exon in downtown Atl/Dallas will be laughed out of the room and shot down because all of these companies have to answer to the board and its shareholders and they will do whatever is most economical for the company.

brewcrew1000 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:49 am Couldn't this same argument be used in reverse? St Louis has a huge corporate presence, lots of fortune 1000 companies are located in St Louis, corporate involvement with St Louis based companies when it comes to cultural amenities is huge, enterprise car rental founders are building a stadium for the MLS team but there is not a whole lot of companies HQ in downtown STL, most of them are in Clayton or along the 64/270/170 corridor. There is a ton of civic pride and civic donors among st louis companies but they are just not downtown. So the whole argument that we need companies downtown for civic pride sake is bullshit and worthless.

Even most of the big companies in Dallas and Atlanta are not even downtown, Frito Lay, Kimberly Clark, Exon, a ton of other big companies are all in Irving or Plano, UPS, Coke, Home Depot are all north of Downtown Atlanta.

Frankly any of these companies deciding to building a huge sears tower like structure for Home Depot or Exon in downtown Atl/Dallas will be laughed out of the room and shot down because all of these companies have to answer to the board and its shareholders and they will do whatever is most economical for the company.

I would liken Clayton - CBD STL corridor to Plaza - CBD KC corridor. "Downtown KC office jobs" should include everything from River to Plaza when thinking of the region as a whole. An "issue" is that the scale and reach of STL business is far greater. All of the truly big KC businesses have been bought out at this point.

For example.....
KC Wealth Managers: Creative Planning and American Century are both around 200-300 Billion AUM.
STL Wealth Managers: Edward Jones is around $1.8 Trillion AUM


Off the top of my head, I could think of HQs for these major businesses in that corridor. I am sure that Chris could tell us more

Spire, Ameren, Stifel Bank, Nestle-Purina, Peabody, Arch, Enterprise Rental Car, Centenne, Ascension Health. Big offices for Commerce Bank, Microsoft (regional office), and the office of the CEO of Carnival Cruise Lines.

These discussions lose a lot of credibility when we try and define downtown KC by a highway loop

I think it’d be cool to have more downtown corporate presence but I don’t think it’s a 100% correlation that you can only grow that way, or that it even causes you to grow. You see cities that do and don’t have these companies downtown grow at many different rates. Some of the the most suburban ones grow alot, some don’t. Same for downtowns.

Just my observation, but the highest correlation I see for growing a city is you have street retail/restaurants, walkability and connectivity. You can have a town with no corporate presence at all, but if you have those three things people will come flocking. I see it all the time when I look at small cities & towns.

That’s why I’m pounding my fist on the table for the south loop cap every day here (highly improves walkability & connectivity) which I think will be more of a growth factor for us than much else.

AlkaliAxel wrote: ↑Thu Jan 27, 2022 1:29 pm Just my observation, but the highest correlation I see for growing a city is you have street retail/restaurants, walkability and connectivity. You can have a town with no corporate presence at all, but if you have those three things people will come flocking. I see it all the time when I look at small cities & towns.

That’s why I’m pounding my fist on the table for the south loop cap every day here (highly improves walkability & connectivity) which I think will be more of a growth factor for us than much else.

^This
This is what i was trying to get at, Dallas and Houston have huge downtowns with tons of skyscrapers and lots of things to do, lots of hotels but i would be willing to bet both of those downtown populations are smaller then KC