Omaha / Council Bluffs

KC0KEK · Post by **KC0KEK** » Mon May 17, 2004 12:01 pm

QueSi2Opie wrote:Are you leaving Friday morning or Friday afternoon? It takes about 2 hours and 30 minutes to get to Omaha from KC.

Late Friday afternoon. Thanks for the estimate. I wasn't sure how long it would take. I've been through Omaha several times but never timed the KC-to-Omaha leg.

Xpatriate · Post by **Xpatriate** » Tue May 18, 2004 12:58 pm

E, thanks for the list of sites and the photos. I've never been to Omaha, and hadn't really given the place much thought, but from what I've seen from your post, it looks like a pretty cool place! I'll definitely have to take a trip up there in the future, and check the city out. I especially liked the photos of Old Market. What's the story on that place? When did the city restore it? It reminds me of our River Market, but RM, despite its charm, irritates me a bit because its redevelopment has, to date, been so patchy. One street is simply beautiful, and the next one is crap (parking lots, old gas station, etc.). They are working on it, and when completely redeveloped, it'll be fantastic, but I'm just impatient for that time. Is Old Market the same way, or has it been totally redeveloped? When did they start? Thanks for the info!

QueSi2Opie · Post by **QueSi2Opie** » Tue May 25, 2004 1:49 pm

Xpatriate wrote:Is Old Market the same way, or has it been totally redeveloped? When did they start? Thanks for the info!

Old Market is more like Westport and the City Market combined. Maybe not in size, but definitely in atmosphere. They also have the horse carriages like the Plaza.

KC0KEK · Post by **KC0KEK** » Tue Jun 01, 2004 6:27 am

QueSi2Opie wrote:Old Market is more like Westport and the City Market combined. Maybe not in size, but definitely in atmosphere. They also have the horse carriages like the Plaza.

I spent the Memorial Day weekend there, and that's a pretty accurate way of describing it to a KCer. The only thing I'd add is that it has a few Plaza-quality restaurants, too, at least in terms of food rather than pretentiousness.

trailerkid · Post by **trailerkid** » Tue Jun 01, 2004 1:23 pm

KC0KEK wrote:
QueSi2Opie wrote:Old Market is more like Westport and the City Market combined. Maybe not in size, but definitely in atmosphere. They also have the horse carriages like the Plaza.
I spent the Memorial Day weekend there, and that's a pretty accurate way of describing it to a KCer. The only thing I'd add is that it has a few Plaza-quality restaurants, too, at least in terms of food rather than pretentiousness.

WOW KCOKEK....I was there too, maybe I saw ya there?

My Downtown Omaha report...

I was in town and stayed at the foot of the Old Market at Embassy Suites.

First off, why is there an entire block in the center of the Old Market that is boarded up and vacant? It is the old block where Wally and Teddy's(or whatever it's called) and Godfather's Pizza used to be. It's been years since I've actaully visited downtown Omaha, and these are my honest impression-- not trying to knock anything or anyone--- I'd be this honest when I talk about Lawrence/KC too.

The Qwest Center really doesn't interact with the rest of downtown. It acts as a island on the northern edge and seems to typify the "freeway/suburban" arena design. I'm sure the inside facility is great and whatnot, but the bold white design, neon lighting, and landscaping look like something that belongs in Anaheim. To me, it doesn't lend itself to a walking urban lifestyle. Walking from the Old Market to the Qwest Center did not look very inviting and didn't look like anyone would do such a thing(kind of like walking from the Crossroads to the South Loop). From the 480, it appeared there was a large garage as well as a sea of parking spaces around the facility. In all honesty, it kind of looked like if you dropped Kemper, its garage and its lots next to the 670 in the south loop. Obviously, not a great idea, but not completely horrible. I guess the arena is still in its infancy so it may be too early to tell its impacts.

The parking issue in the Old Market is bad. Almost every building seems to have a surface lot around it. The District itself only seems to have 2 block of density with the rest being patchy. For example, the Embassy Suites have a fenced off surface lot next to their building as their main parking facility. Even those lofts that burnt down, and the rehabbed ones next to them both have large surface parking lots at the gateway to their buildings. The new ice cream shop also has a parking lot with people actually parking parallel to the building's windows and such within the lot. I guess I'm more of a density freak, but this stuff drives me nuts. If I'm a tourist, I don't like walking through parking lots everywhere I go.

The heart of the Old Market has a good pseudo-Euro streetscape. There are some very interesting strorefronts also. I would just like to see more development around the market, but unfortunately, it looks like most of the older structures around it have been torn down.

I may be expecting too much, but I was also just a little bit disappointed overall at how stagnate some of the businesses seem. Yes, the French Cafe is still there as is the Spaghetti Works, etc. and this is comforting. Most of the stuff has been there since I was a kid and there really isn't much that even peaked my interest. Even the more subversive stores (Drastic Plastic, Retro Recycle, Antiquarium) seem the same as they were as when I was in junior high. I didn't even try to go into some of these places because there are just less evolved versions of what you may find in Lawrence, Minneapolis, or Chicago.

There also seems to be not much housing development going on. The Old Market should have HUGE condos and townhouses going in all around it, but there is little more than scattered businesses, a couple new hotels, and parking lots.

Basically, the things that would draw me back to downtown Omaha would be more residents and less tourists, more density (goes along with tourists), evolution of businesses, more walkable spaces (goes along with density and residents). As of right now, I wouldn't go back.

Post by **chrizow** » Tue Jun 01, 2004 1:46 pm

^

hopefully the South Loop stuff won't repeat these pitfalls. it's not terribly walkable right now. i hope it will be!

KC0KEK · Post by **KC0KEK** » Tue Jun 01, 2004 3:45 pm

trailerkid wrote: WOW KCOKEK....I was there too, maybe I saw ya there?

My Downtown Omaha report...

I was in town and stayed at the foot of the Old Market at Embassy Suites.

First off, why is there an entire block in the center of the Old Market that is boarded up and vacant? It is the old block where Wally and Teddy's(or whatever it's called) and Godfather's Pizza used to be. It's been years since I've actaully visited downtown Omaha, and these are my honest impression-- not trying to knock anything or anyone--- I'd be this honest when I talk about Lawrence/KC too.

The Qwest Center really doesn't interact with the rest of downtown. It acts as a island on the northern edge and seems to typify the "freeway/suburban" arena design. I'm sure the inside facility is great and whatnot, but the bold white design, neon lighting, and landscaping look like something that belongs in Anaheim. To me, it doesn't lend itself to a walking urban lifestyle. Walking from the Old Market to the Qwest Center did not look very inviting and didn't look like anyone would do such a thing(kind of like walking from the Crossroads to the South Loop). From the 480, it appeared there was a large garage as well as a sea of parking spaces around the facility. In all honesty, it kind of looked like if you dropped Kemper, its garage and its lots next to the 670 in the south loop. Obviously, not a great idea, but not completely horrible. I guess the arena is still in its infancy so it may be too early to tell its impacts.

The parking issue in the Old Market is bad. Almost every building seems to have a surface lot around it. The District itself only seems to have 2 block of density with the rest being patchy. For example, the Embassy Suites have a fenced off surface lot next to their building as their main parking facility. Even those lofts that burnt down, and the rehabbed ones next to them both have large surface parking lots at the gateway to their buildings. The new ice cream shop also has a parking lot with people actually parking parallel to the building's windows and such within the lot. I guess I'm more of a density freak, but this stuff drives me nuts. If I'm a tourist, I don't like walking through parking lots everywhere I go.

The heart of the Old Market has a good pseudo-Euro streetscape. There are some very interesting strorefronts also. I would just like to see more development around the market, but unfortunately, it looks like most of the older structures around it have been torn down.

I may be expecting too much, but I was also just a little bit disappointed overall at how stagnate some of the businesses seem. Yes, the French Cafe is still there as is the Spaghetti Works, etc. and this is comforting. Most of the stuff has been there since I was a kid and there really isn't much that even peaked my interest. Even the more subversive stores (Drastic Plastic, Retro Recycle, Antiquarium) seem the same as they were as when I was in junior high. I didn't even try to go into some of these places because there are just less evolved versions of what you may find in Lawrence, Minneapolis, or Chicago.

There also seems to be not much housing development going on. The Old Market should have HUGE condos and townhouses going in all around it, but there is little more than scattered businesses, a couple new hotels, and parking lots.

Basically, the things that would draw me back to downtown Omaha would be more residents and less tourists, more density (goes along with tourists), evolution of businesses, more walkable spaces (goes along with density and residents). As of right now, I wouldn't go back.

Small world. We stayed at the Doubletree next to the new FNB building. It was okay, but the rooms really needed updating. For example, the 70s-era bathroom tile looked like something out of Austin Powers -- except I wasn't laughing. If this hotel wants to cater to business travelers visting FNB and Union Pacific next door, then they need to spend some serious bucks on upgrades.

In the Old Market, Spaghetti Works and Cactus Cafe were disappointments. Nice digs but only so-so food. Upstream Brewery was great in both respects. Check out the Blackstone Stout, even if you're not into microbrews. The Diner is good for breakfast, and Zio's reputation for pizza is well deserved.

If you plan to spend a lot of time in the Old Market, get a hotel within walking distance. There are several. Otherwise, if you're there on a weekend, you'll either have to pay for parking in one of the many surface lots or circle the block looking for street parking. Happily the street parking is free on weekends, but open spaces can be tough to find.

My biggest gripe about the urban core is the one-way streets. Way too many of them, and they don't seem to serve any useful purpose in terms of traffic flow. But overall the metro area is easy to navigate, and traffic isn't bad, at least on a weekend.

Tried to go to the zoo, but there was no parking, due to the college baseball playoffs next door.

The Dundee area has a wonderfull collection of older, well-maintained homes. It's similar to Brookside, but nicer in some respects. Definitely worth checking out.

Went to the Zona Rosa-style shopping center, Village Pointe, which opened only a few days earlier. (See http://www.eomaha.com/gallery/develop/32/) A good selection of shops, but except for Z Galleria, aren't most of them already available in other parts of the Omaha metro? If so, then like Zona Rosa, aside from the "new" factor, there isn't much reason for tourists and residents alike to visit Village Pointe. I just don't understand the appeal of such places if the majority of the shops aren't local or at least unique to the area. But I digress.

The riverfront/Leahy Mall area is great for a stroll.

Buy gas on the Iowa side. It's at least 10 cents cheaper.[/url]

KC0KEK · Post by **KC0KEK** » Tue Jun 01, 2004 3:47 pm

trailerkid wrote: WOW KCOKEK....I was there too, maybe I saw ya there?

My Downtown Omaha report...

I was in town and stayed at the foot of the Old Market at Embassy Suites.

First off, why is there an entire block in the center of the Old Market that is boarded up and vacant? It is the old block where Wally and Teddy's(or whatever it's called) and Godfather's Pizza used to be. It's been years since I've actaully visited downtown Omaha, and these are my honest impression-- not trying to knock anything or anyone--- I'd be this honest when I talk about Lawrence/KC too.

The Qwest Center really doesn't interact with the rest of downtown. It acts as a island on the northern edge and seems to typify the "freeway/suburban" arena design. I'm sure the inside facility is great and whatnot, but the bold white design, neon lighting, and landscaping look like something that belongs in Anaheim. To me, it doesn't lend itself to a walking urban lifestyle. Walking from the Old Market to the Qwest Center did not look very inviting and didn't look like anyone would do such a thing(kind of like walking from the Crossroads to the South Loop). From the 480, it appeared there was a large garage as well as a sea of parking spaces around the facility. In all honesty, it kind of looked like if you dropped Kemper, its garage and its lots next to the 670 in the south loop. Obviously, not a great idea, but not completely horrible. I guess the arena is still in its infancy so it may be too early to tell its impacts.

The parking issue in the Old Market is bad. Almost every building seems to have a surface lot around it. The District itself only seems to have 2 block of density with the rest being patchy. For example, the Embassy Suites have a fenced off surface lot next to their building as their main parking facility. Even those lofts that burnt down, and the rehabbed ones next to them both have large surface parking lots at the gateway to their buildings. The new ice cream shop also has a parking lot with people actually parking parallel to the building's windows and such within the lot. I guess I'm more of a density freak, but this stuff drives me nuts. If I'm a tourist, I don't like walking through parking lots everywhere I go.

The heart of the Old Market has a good pseudo-Euro streetscape. There are some very interesting strorefronts also. I would just like to see more development around the market, but unfortunately, it looks like most of the older structures around it have been torn down.

I may be expecting too much, but I was also just a little bit disappointed overall at how stagnate some of the businesses seem. Yes, the French Cafe is still there as is the Spaghetti Works, etc. and this is comforting. Most of the stuff has been there since I was a kid and there really isn't much that even peaked my interest. Even the more subversive stores (Drastic Plastic, Retro Recycle, Antiquarium) seem the same as they were as when I was in junior high. I didn't even try to go into some of these places because there are just less evolved versions of what you may find in Lawrence, Minneapolis, or Chicago.

There also seems to be not much housing development going on. The Old Market should have HUGE condos and townhouses going in all around it, but there is little more than scattered businesses, a couple new hotels, and parking lots.

Basically, the things that would draw me back to downtown Omaha would be more residents and less tourists, more density (goes along with tourists), evolution of businesses, more walkable spaces (goes along with density and residents). As of right now, I wouldn't go back.

Small world. We stayed at the Doubletree dowtown, next to the new FNB building. It was okay, but the rooms really needed updating. For example, the 70s-era bathroom tile looked like something out of Austin Powers -- except I wasn't laughing. If this hotel wants to cater to business travelers visting FNB and Union Pacific next door, then they need to spend some serious bucks on upgrades.

In the Old Market, Spaghetti Works and Cactus Cafe were disappointments. Nice digs but only so-so food. Upstream Brewery was great in both respects. Check out the Blackstone Stout, even if you're not into microbrews. The Diner is good for breakfast, and Zio's reputation for pizza is well deserved.

If you plan to spend a lot of time in the Old Market, get a hotel within walking distance. There are several. Otherwise, if you're there on a weekend, you'll either have to pay for parking in one of the many surface lots or circle the block looking for street parking. Happily the street parking is free on weekends, but open spaces can be tough to find.

My biggest gripe about the urban core is the one-way streets. Way too many of them, and they don't seem to serve any useful purpose in terms of traffic flow. But overall the metro area is easy to navigate, and traffic isn't bad, at least on a weekend.

Tried to go to the zoo, but there was no parking, due to the college baseball playoffs next door.

The Dundee area has a wonderfull collection of older, well-maintained homes. It's similar to Brookside, but nicer in some respects. Definitely worth checking out.

Went to the Zona Rosa-style shopping center, Village Pointe, which opened only a few days earlier. (See http://www.eomaha.com/gallery/develop/32/) A good selection of shops, but except for Z Galleria, aren't most of them already available in other parts of the Omaha metro? If so, then like Zona Rosa, aside from the "new" factor, there isn't much reason for tourists and residents alike to visit Village Pointe. I just don't understand the appeal of such places if the majority of the shops aren't local or at least unique to the area. But I digress.

The riverfront/Leahy Mall area is great for a stroll.

Buy gas on the Iowa side. It's at least 10 cents cheaper.

QueSi2Opie · Post by **QueSi2Opie** » Tue Jun 01, 2004 7:29 pm

My wife and I almost went up to Omaha this past weekend, but jus' got back from our South Texas trip and didn't need to spend anymore money.

How could you go to Omaha and NOT go to the Zoo?!?!? The Omaha's zoo ranked 1st in the nation this year ahead of San Diego and St. Louis.

Can't believe you missed Joseyln Art Museum either.

Seems more like you explored neighborhoods and shopping districts?

You need to take Omaha for what it's worth, a small city that is far more of a surprise than Des Moines, Wichita and Tulsa (IMO). They have a great live music scene and the city is progessive. BTW, I love Spagetti Works in Omaha, my dinner there has always been good.

Seems you guys criticized lil' Omaha for the same problems that KCMO has got (surface parking, boarded up businesses, walkability).

KC0KEK · Post by **KC0KEK** » Tue Jun 01, 2004 8:34 pm

QueSi2Opie wrote:How could you go to Omaha and NOT go to the Zoo?!?!?

Easy: When you arrive at the zoo and are told that all of the lots are full because of the baseball playoffs next door, you move on. Parking literally a half-mile away simply wasn't worth the effort when there were plenty of other things to do. Besides, the zoo isn't going anywhere. It'll be there next time.

trailerkid · Post by **trailerkid** » Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:23 pm

QueSi2Opie wrote: Seems you guys criticized lil' Omaha for the same problems that KCMO has got (surface parking, boarded up businesses, walkability).

The difference is that everything I can see in downtown KC that is wrong or needs fixing doesn't seem that bad when you compare it to Omaha. I thought I would have a nerbous breakdown walking from the Xroads to the CBD, but even Omaha also has some major work to do in their "showcase" district. It is also an issue of size. I'm not a geographer, but it seems and feels like our downtown(River to 31st) must be at least 4 times larger than Omaha's downtown if not more. I've walked around downtown for hours and never even went north of 12th Street. Within greater Downtown KC...not surprisingly, there seems like more stuff in general.

I hate to bring up the whole "KC vs. Omaha" debate, but if you walk around downtown Omaha...the debate is over. KC has a ton more to work with-- it is obvious in every way, shape, and form. This is not a diss just the reality I saw. I just remember the Old Market being big and dense, but over the weekend is just seemed tired and dinky. First National Bank tower looked pretty good at night though.

BTW, I was only there a day(and for a specific purpose) and the zoo isn't really my thing.

KCDevin · Post by **KCDevin** » Wed Jun 02, 2004 12:00 am

don't look at the present, man, you have to look at the future, and the future dt KC blows away the future of Omaha's.

Post by **chrizow** » Wed Jun 02, 2004 8:54 am

i think both cities have a bright future. KC's downtown is bigger so we have more to work WITH, but it also means we have more work TO DO. i'd say both cities are neck-and-neck relative to their size and respective pasts.

go omaha! we need more strong cities out here in the hinterlands. i foresee a strong core of Plains State cities - KC, Omaha, des moines, minneapolis (yes i consider it a plains state), etc. St. Louis is more in the Cincy, Cleveland, Columbus, Louisville school of Red Brick Old Cities.

a strong omaha is good for the region, as is a strong KC. luckily both are working hard towards that end.

QueSi2Opie · Post by **QueSi2Opie** » Wed Jun 02, 2004 10:38 am

trailerkid wrote:I hate to bring up the whole "KC vs. Omaha" debate,

And you're right, there should never be a "KC vs. Omaha" debate...Omaha is 800,000...KC is 1.8 million. We don't sit around and have KC vs. Wichita or KC vs. Des Moines debates. All I'm tryin' to say is that Omaha blows away any city in the Midwest between 450,000 to 950,000 people (Akron, Dayton, Des Moines, Evansville, Fort Wayne, Grand Rapids, Madison, Peoria, Toledo, Wichita, etc.).

trailerkid · Post by **trailerkid** » Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:37 pm

QueSi2Opie wrote:
trailerkid wrote: All I'm tryin' to say is that Omaha blows away any city in the Midwest between 450,000 to 950,000 people (Akron, Dayton, Des Moines, Evansville, Fort Wayne, Grand Rapids, Madison, Peoria, Toledo, Wichita, etc.).

^^^ Wow...pass the pipe this way please.

eomaha.com · Post by **eomaha.com** » Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:56 pm

KCO... the ORoyals were playing this weekend... they don't draw NEARLY enough people to fill all the parking spots between the stadium and zoo (good point though... don't plan on going to the zoo when the College World Series is underway later this month!!). Sounds like you just didn't want to walk more than a couple of hundred yards.

Yes... let's keep this in perspective here (actually KC is closer to 2 million these days isn't it?)... Kansas contributes more to the KC metro than the entire Omaha metro in terms of population (so tell me... how's downtown KCKS looking these days?). By the way.. Des Moines is a fantastic city... pound for pound... perhaps the best city under 1 million in the nation. KC should be happy to have such prominent cities in its midst (not to speak of the economic impact our residents have on KC).

I'm just happy we have an entertainment district downtown... which has some local flavor no less (what kind of atmosphere is any 'design build' entertainment district going to have... sounds like another Village Pointe/Zona Rosa to me). On the other hand... if you spent all your time dwelling on the long time fixtures of the Spaghetti Works and French Cafe... you missed the MANY other fine restaurants and taverns which exist in the Old Market.

(I'm also trying to figure out what this vacant building is in the middle of the Old Market... the only one I can think of... was one which was victim of fire (another fire!) a couple of months ago)... it is being redeveloped. By the way... in case you hadn't heard... a developer is building 83 row houses immediately south of the Market ( http://www.eomaha.com/gallery/develop/82/ ). We move forward a little more slowly than KC, with our significantly smaller population... but we ARE moving forward... as was said... as quickly as any metro our size.

And the surface parking will be developed and replaced around the Qwest Center with time (by the way... surface parking situation certainly isn't any WORSE in Omaha... than KC... remember... this IS 'little' Omaha). As I've said before... Omaha moves rather slowly, methodically...not many speculative developers here. They act when the demand is... well... demanding something be built. In the meantime...I'll take the Qwest Center surface parking over what was there (not like we tore down a bunch of historically significant buildings or anything)....

Don't fear Omaha... we're no threat to KC... unless perhaps we stop visiting, shopping, enjoying ourselves in KC. I sure don't see that happening.

KCDevin · Post by **KCDevin** » Wed Jun 02, 2004 3:21 pm

Que, we now have over 2,000,000 people ya know

KC0KEK · Post by **KC0KEK** » Wed Jun 02, 2004 4:14 pm

eomaha.com wrote:KCO... the ORoyals were playing this weekend... they don't draw NEARLY enough people to fill all the parking spots between the stadium and zoo (good point though... don't plan on going to the zoo when the College World Series is underway later this month!!). Sounds like you just didn't want to walk more than a couple of hundred yards.

Regardless of which teams were playing early Sunday afternoon, the lots were filled. I know; I was there. It was so full that cars were parked on the grass along the main street that feeds the stadium and the zoo. I drove six blocks, and the parking lots and streets also were filled. Go back and read some of my posts elsewhere on this site, and you'll see that I actually prefer walking over driving. In fact, I walked from my hotel downtown to the Old Market several times over the weekend. But in the case of the zoo, I decided that time was better spent checking out other sites than trekking to the zoo.

QueSi2Opie · Post by **QueSi2Opie** » Wed Jun 02, 2004 9:45 pm

trailerkid wrote:Wow...pass the pipe this way please.

Please enlighten me on which one of the cities I mentioned are better than Omaha? I'm sure you'd probably love Madison, WI...the communist capitol of the Midwest!

QueSi2Opie · Post by **QueSi2Opie** » Wed Jun 02, 2004 9:46 pm

KCDevin wrote:Que, we now have over 2,000,000 people ya know

Sorry Devin, but I don't count Ottawa, KS or St. Joseph, MO.