Ferguson, Missouri

[phuqueue]

The cops keep calling it a "strong-arm robbery," which notably is not an offense in the Missouri statutes, but it certainly sounds a lot more threatening than "robbery in the second degree."

[chaglang]

The cops keep calling it a "strong-arm robbery," which notably is not an offense in the Missouri statutes, but it certainly sounds a lot more threatening than "robbery in the second degree."

Or "shoplifting"

[mean]

Don't try to minimize the kid's alleged crime to give the impression it was nonviolent. I'm not saying he deserved to be shot, even if he was a violent criminal, but both sides are so full of disingenuous bullshit to either demonize or angelify the kid that it is maddening.

[phuqueue]

I mean two facts that aren't in dispute even by the cops are that he was unarmed and that, at the time he was killed, he was running away. I can't think of any possible way to fill out the rest of that story in a way that justifies the killing, so it makes no difference to me whether he was a "violent criminal" or not. Even violent criminals are supposedly guaranteed due process. No need to demonize or "angelify" the kid, it's all just a bullshit distraction in any case.

[warwickland]

so fucking weird to see ferguson as #ferguson. my dad lived on canfield which was where the genesis of this was, as a north county bachelor many moons ago. my middle class upbringing was born out of the north county aerospace and auto manufacturing middle-middle class.

[aknowledgeableperson]

The cops keep calling it a "strong-arm robbery," which notably is not an offense in the Missouri statutes, but it certainly sounds a lot more threatening than "robbery in the second degree."

Or "shoplifting"

Not sure how you define "shoplifting" but from watching the video one person pushed an employee and appeared to bully the employee. And this was before exiting the store. Laying a hand on another may be an assault. Would need a lawyer to define the different levels of charges.

Anyway, the release of the video was stupid. And if the person in the video is the police shooting victim that crime does not justify the shooting. We have heard one side of the story, just wonder what the other side has to say.

[phuqueue]

The cops keep calling it a "strong-arm robbery," which notably is not an offense in the Missouri statutes, but it certainly sounds a lot more threatening than "robbery in the second degree."

Or "shoplifting"

Not sure how you define "shoplifting" but from watching the video one person pushed an employee and appeared to bully the employee. And this was before exiting the store. Laying a hand on another may be an assault. Would need a lawyer to define the different levels of charges.

Anyway, the release of the video was stupid. And if the person in the video is the police shooting victim that crime does not justify the shooting. We have heard one side of the story, just wonder what the other side has to say.

You could charge second degree robbery. From the MO statutes: "569.030. 1. A person commits the crime of robbery in the second degree when he forcibly steals property." Heard a criminal defense attorney (which I am not) say that if this went to trial the chance of getting an actual robbery conviction is approximately zero -- said that it would almost definitely get knocked down to petit larceny and assault, or possibly even just petit larceny alone. Notably that guy is not barred in MO, so he was speaking generally (for instance, "petit larceny" is not in the MO statutes) -- the specific charges under this scenario in MO would probably be stealing (a class A misdemeanor) and third degree assault (a class C misdemeanor). I'm not a MO lawyer so I'm not 100% sure on that, but looking at the statutes, that's what it looks like to me, provided this criminal defense lawyer is right that a second degree robbery charge wouldn't really stick once it got to court. For what it's worth, second degree robbery is a class B felony. A class B felony carries a penalty of 5-15 years in prison. Class A and C misdemeanors are, respectively, up to one year in prison and up to fifteen days in prison.

http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/c500-599/5580000011.htm prison terms for various levels of crime
http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5650000070.HTM third degree assault
http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5700000030.HTM stealing
http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/chapters/chap569.htm second degree robbery

[aknowledgeableperson]

Thank you.

[chaglang]

Is the story that the police officer who shot Mike Brown wasn't responding to the incident at the convenience store still accurate?

[grovester]

Is the story that the police officer who shot Mike Brown wasn't responding to the incident at the convenience store still accurate?

Not responding and had no knowledge of.

[KCMax]

You could charge second degree robbery. From the MO statutes: "569.030. 1. A person commits the crime of robbery in the second degree when he forcibly steals property." Heard a criminal defense attorney (which I am not) say that if this went to trial the chance of getting an actual robbery conviction is approximately zero -- said that it would almost definitely get knocked down to petit larceny and assault, or possibly even just petit larceny alone. Notably that guy is not barred in MO, so he was speaking generally (for instance, "petit larceny" is not in the MO statutes) -- the specific charges under this scenario in MO would probably be stealing (a class A misdemeanor) and third degree assault (a class C misdemeanor). I'm not a MO lawyer so I'm not 100% sure on that, but looking at the statutes, that's what it looks like to me, provided this criminal defense lawyer is right that a second degree robbery charge wouldn't really stick once it got to court. For what it's worth, second degree robbery is a class B felony. A class B felony carries a penalty of 5-15 years in prison. Class A and C misdemeanors are, respectively, up to one year in prison and up to fifteen days in prison.

http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/c500-599/5580000011.htm prison terms for various levels of crime
http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5650000070.HTM third degree assault
http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5700000030.HTM stealing
http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/chapters/chap569.htm second degree robbery

Interestingly, his accomplice has not been arrested nor charged with shoplifting.

[KCMax]

Autopsy Shows Michael Brown Was Struck at Least 6 Times

Michael Brown, the unarmed black teenager who was killed by a police officer, sparking protests around the nation, was shot at least six times, including twice in the head, a preliminary private autopsy performed on Sunday found.

One of the bullets entered the top of Mr. Brown’s skull, suggesting his head was bent forward when it struck him and caused a fatal injury, according to Dr. Michael M. Baden, the former chief medical examiner for the City of New York, who flew to Missouri on Sunday at the family’s request to conduct the separate autopsy. It was likely the last of bullets to hit him, he said.

Mr. Brown, 18, was also shot four times in the right arm, he said, adding that all the bullets were fired into his front.

[phuqueue]

You could charge second degree robbery. From the MO statutes: "569.030. 1. A person commits the crime of robbery in the second degree when he forcibly steals property." Heard a criminal defense attorney (which I am not) say that if this went to trial the chance of getting an actual robbery conviction is approximately zero -- said that it would almost definitely get knocked down to petit larceny and assault, or possibly even just petit larceny alone. Notably that guy is not barred in MO, so he was speaking generally (for instance, "petit larceny" is not in the MO statutes) -- the specific charges under this scenario in MO would probably be stealing (a class A misdemeanor) and third degree assault (a class C misdemeanor). I'm not a MO lawyer so I'm not 100% sure on that, but looking at the statutes, that's what it looks like to me, provided this criminal defense lawyer is right that a second degree robbery charge wouldn't really stick once it got to court. For what it's worth, second degree robbery is a class B felony. A class B felony carries a penalty of 5-15 years in prison. Class A and C misdemeanors are, respectively, up to one year in prison and up to fifteen days in prison.

http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/c500-599/5580000011.htm prison terms for various levels of crime
http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5650000070.HTM third degree assault
http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5700000030.HTM stealing
http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/chapters/chap569.htm second degree robbery

Interestingly, his accomplice has not been arrested nor charged with shoplifting.

Yeah, it's puzzling. Heard (secondhand, didn't see an article about it myself) that the cops claim they aren't charging him because the video shows he "wasn't involved in the robbery." Like, they were in the store together, passing things back and forth to each other. If you wanted to charge something, you could charge something.

Been hearing that some people think the video actually shows Brown paying for his cigars, though. I thought from the very beginning, you can see a point when his hand comes up to the counter and appears to have something in it that could be money, but the video is horrible quality so it's far from clear (seriously it's 2014, how are we still using 320x240 videotapes recording at 8fps?). There's another video up now that has a somewhat sharper (but, uh, not that much) image, but the color is washed out, so it's still not super helpful, but the guy who posted the video thinks you can "clearly" see money in the clerk's hand at about 36 seconds (it's not really that clear to me).

The whole thing is really confusing. Brown clearly stands at the counter for a while, having an apparently normal interaction with the clerk. The cigars are kept behind the counter, so the clerk had to have gotten them for him. Brown doesn't appear to be agitated or in any sort of rush during this entire episode. None of his behavior seems to indicate that he's robbing the place. And yet at the very end, of course, the clerk comes running after him, gets shoved out of the way, etc. As far as I'm aware, the clerk has been tight lipped, so we don't know what his side of the story is (heard that evidently his lawyer was on TV and notably never actually used the word "robbery" but apparently spoke broadly about the incident in a way that sort of acquiesces to the police account of a robbery -- but I didn't see this interview myself so I don't know any more about it than that).

Really, the robbery thing is all a distraction anyway. The cop didn't even know about the robbery at the time that he confronted Brown. Even if he had, Brown was unarmed and -- by the time of the killing -- not in close proximity to the officer. With these two facts in mind, I'm utterly unable to imagine a scenario in which the use of lethal force was justified. Whether or not Brown robbed a convenience store ten minutes earlier is irrelevant to that central question. The family calls it character assassination and it's really hard to disagree.

[aknowledgeableperson]

The robbery may or may not be part of the discussion. Not that the officer knew about it but more about Brown and his reaction to the police presence. Right now there is a lot we don't know.

[bobbyhawks]

The robbery may or may not be part of the discussion. Not that the officer knew about it but more about Brown and his reaction to the police presence. Right now there is a lot we don't know.

I think everyone realizes it is about character assasination. The problem is we still don't know if the police can be trusted in this matter. The fact is that a bad actor would have always released the information about the robbery. A good actor could have gone either way, but it would have looked more favorable towards the police trying to do the right thing in the court of public opinion if they had not releasedhis to the public in the way they did. It comes across as hyper defensive and in your face.

[kcjak]

I also read that the owner of the convenience store from which the cigars were taken told the police he didn't want to press charges and wanted absolutely nothing to do with the whole situation. Also asked the community to continue to support his establishment.

[phuqueue]

Yeah, the convenience store didn't call the cops or report a robbery. A customer called it in and the PD subpoenaed the surveillance tape the next day. Suppose it's possible that the store didn't call the police because a customer already had, but it seems pretty odd that the store has been so hands off about the entire thing if they feel they were robbed.

I don't think how the robbery might bear on Brown's behavior makes any difference either, though. It might lead you to believe the PD's account, in which Brown got into it with the cop and went for his gun (although, counterpoint: most people who run into a cop after stealing fifty dollars worth of cigars probably don't try to kill the cop; doesn't mean Brown acted like most people, but it's very weird to just assume otherwise based on nothing except the account of a PD that has not been at all forthcoming and has changed its story at various times throughout this whole ordeal), but even if that happened, the struggle for the gun was over by the time Brown was killed. Wilson might have been justified in using lethal force during a physical fight for control of his weapon, but when Brown gave up and fled, the window for using lethal force closed. This is why the "robbery," even if that's exactly what it was, is irrelevant. It may speak to Brown's mindset during the alleged scuffle with the cop, but he wasn't killed during the scuffle. The robbery story, true or not, is just a distraction.

[swid]

This New York Times op-ed about how Ferguson wound up with the disparity between its government and its residents incidentally highlights one of my pet peeves about the state of Missouri: municipalities of any size can fund their own police departments, as long as they can find the revenue to do so, so local police forces have a powerful incentive to ticket/fine citizens as much as possible.

[KCMax]

So I guess this is Obama's Katrina, eh? Tone deaf.

[aknowledgeableperson]

Right now there are conflicting stories about a fight or not. And the autopsy performed and released by the family details the shots fired but not from what distance. NO GSR on Brown but his clothing has not been analyzed nor has the police officers gun been studied to see if there is any of Brown's DNA on it.

In other words still some unknowns out there.