KCRag Forum

Great development...I started to respond thinking this is what was going at 51st and Main but saw it was Oak, which made it even better somehow.

These 2 projects should make a big positive impact on the neighborhood and having a grocer will make the immediate S. Plaza area one of the most walkable neighborhoods in the city, up there with Westport, Brookside and Downtown. I use that stretch of the TTT regularly to commute to my job in Wesport, and I don't particularly care about the TTT crossing (I'd much rather see the trail prioritized through the Brookside and Waldo parking lots than protect against something as minor as a potential curb cut), but I guess I fail to understand how it is necessary. Why can't grocery store customers drive on Oak or 51st? The BKS Price Chopper seems to do fine without an entrance off Meyer. The Westport Sunfresh doesn't have an entrance of the Trafficway.

I don't think there will be a lot of nimby shreiking about this project. There's already a lot of apartments in the S. Plaza area, and obviously the UMKC housing along Oak is pretty much the same scale as this project. I'm sure there will be a few squeeky wheels, but I think most of the neighborhood is all for projects like this. Even most of the comments on the Star are pretty favorable and everybody know what a skewed bitch-fest those are.

KCPowercat wrote:Great development...I started to respond thinking this is what was going at 51st and Main but saw it was Oak, which made it even better somehow.

I was kind of thrown by this too. I thought the Whole Foods was goind to anchor 51st and Main. Do we know now what will be at 51st and Main?

And no TIF for the residential portion or related parking garage?

51st and Oak is a better spot. it's off the major through street which means less traffic on residental streets. As a major street there's less reason to complain about a big all day shop opening nearby.

another grocery in the urban core is a bigger sign than the new units because grocery stores need lots of people to shop there regularly since they're so low margin. you tend to see grocery stores pop up after the homes are announced or built.

it's a huge sign about the return of the urban core.

chrizow wrote:

I'm pleased by this project and think it is overall a definite plus for the neighborhood. However, after looking at the concept drawing from the Star, I noticed that the apartments and the store aren't designed to front the street. Am I the only one slightly disappointed by this? When we first heard the announcement my mind envisioned the Whole Foods fronting 51st with the surface parking perhaps hidden behind the building (a second entrance, maybe?) and the apartments above it facing 51st & Oak with an entrance on either street. What the drawing depicts is a Whole Foods fronting Brookside Blvd (making it look like any typical "big box" type store) and what appear to be two small apartment towers that fail to address the street. One of the huge benefits of density, other than just having more people around in general to support things, is having buildings that address the street and improve the overall character and safety of the neighborhood. I'd like to see this project address the humans rather than the cars.

That is all. I'm still pretty pumped for it even if it isn't the wet dream I'd first imagined.

smh wrote:

chrizow wrote:

I'm pleased by this project and think it is overall a definite plus for the neighborhood. However, after looking at the concept drawing from the Star, I noticed that the apartments and the store aren't designed to front the street.

It can't front on Brookside because of the trail so there's going to be some setback. the trail is on a slight rise which means more setback to give access.

and it looks like the apartment access is from Oak since the students need to head that way.

you also have to consider big truck access. if you rearrange everything to put parking on the Oak side and front it closer to Brookside you need to put the main entrance on the east side. that means the truck access for everything is best on the south side which means a big permament parking lot there the length of a truck for turnarounds

if shopping parking is on the Brookside side they can put a shared apartment/shopping truck access on either end with using Oak for the backup. it's not hard to put in docks that parallel the street

I'd say hiding the semi truck and apartment moving truck access points on the Oak side and putting parking on the Brookside view is the best tradeoff.

Big brick wall along 51st is disappointing. Would like to see a view of the Oak St side.

flyingember wrote:

smh wrote:

chrizow wrote:

I'm pleased by this project and think it is overall a definite plus for the neighborhood. However, after looking at the concept drawing from the Star, I noticed that the apartments and the store aren't designed to front the street.

It can't front on Brookside because of the trail so there's going to be some setback. the trail is on a slight rise which means more setback to give access.

and it looks like the apartment access is from Oak since the students need to head that way.

you also have to consider big truck access. if you rearrange everything to put parking on the Oak side and front it closer to Brookside you need to put the main entrance on the east side. that means the truck access for everything is best on the south side which means a big permament parking lot there the length of a truck for turnarounds

if shopping parking is on the Brookside side they can put a shared apartment/shopping truck access on either end with using Oak for the backup. it's not hard to put in docks that parallel the street

I'd say hiding the semi truck and apartment moving truck access points on the Oak side and putting parking on the Brookside view is the best tradeoff.

You've missed my point. I don't want it to front Brookside, I want it to front 51st. As lock+load says above. The brick wall along 51st is highly disappointing when you have the shops across the street that could use some synergy with a Whole Foods entrance across the street. Obviously it should front Brookside directly--the neighborhood is on 51st & Oak, not Brookside.

smh wrote: You've missed my point. I don't want it to front Brookside, I want it to front 51st. As lock+load says above. The brick wall along 51st is highly disappointing when you have the shops across the street that could use some synergy with a Whole Foods entrance across the street. Obviously it should front Brookside directly--the neighborhood is on 51st & Oak, not Brookside.

I bet the aforementioned docks access is the reason against that. if you put the back of the store on Oak they can use the street to backup to. If they put it facing 51st you need parking behind the structure. that limits how dense it can be.

It's just a concept rendering - maybe there's still hope the 51st St side will integrate better with the street. If what Whole Foods did with the store connected to their corporate HQ in downtown Austin is any indication of what's possible with the massive prepared food section and outdoor tables, I can't wait.

kcjak wrote:It's just a concept rendering - maybe there's still hope the 51st St side will integrate better with the street. If what Whole Foods did with the store connected to their corporate HQ in downtown Austin is any indication of what's possible with the massive prepared food section and outdoor tables, I can't wait.

Here's hoping! Either way, good project. Just seems like it would be really simple to take it from good to great by having it face 51st.

if they can manage to build a new WF store in KC without putting more than a couple of rows of surface parking out front, then i see it as a victory. i think it makes sense to face BKS Blvd, but i agree that there should be an entrance on the 51st side as well and a sign so it interacts with both. The WF store on 119th has an entrance on two sides of the building.

kcjak wrote:And no TIF for the residential portion or related parking garage?

I wouldn't bet on it. I mean, it's likely there will be lots of incentives and public financial support.

I'd rather see the store front face Oak St with a corner entrance. The apts can face Bside Blvd. This would force store traffic to use the side streets to access Bside. Oak also has a lot more student pedestrian traffic that go to the Pizza 51 strip.

Zoom into 'Parking Lot 39'...
https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&safe ... CAcQ8gEwAA

There is no reason this should front Brookside Blvd. Until you get to 63rd, all commercial activity along Brookside actually fronts the cross streets or Oak. It should be pedestrian oriented to the 51st & Oak intersection. A separate entrance on the side or rear near the parking lot is fine, but a blank wall on the street front is inexcusable.

Am I right in thinking they have to put the docks close to Oak, as trucks are banned from Brookside because it's a boulevard? Is Oak wide enough to handle trucks that size?

I have a hunch they're segmenting it solidly with entrance facing.

We know the apartments are going to be primary for UMKC with offices. So the Oak side access becomes for people who live and work in the offices.

an additional 51st St side entrance could be helpful but where entrances go depends on the size of the store. for a small store adding a second entrance could easily cut the services they provide.

it also could be a security risk. The grocery in Brookside has one entrance for example yet they have the frontage for two. The old Liberty Hy-Vee store had the perfect design to have a second entrance for their dining room but they didn't use it for one. At walmart they close one entrance down at nights where they have two

.

pash wrote:

flyingember wrote:

smh wrote: You've missed my point. I don't want it to front Brookside, I want it to front 51st. As lock+load says above. The brick wall along 51st is highly disappointing when you have the shops across the street that could use some synergy with a Whole Foods entrance across the street. Obviously it should front Brookside directly--the neighborhood is on 51st & Oak, not Brookside.

I bet the aforementioned docks access is the reason against that. if you put the back of the store on Oak they can use the street to backup to. If they put it facing 51st you need parking behind the structure. that limits how dense it can be.

Grocery stores in cities all around the world say it can be done in a much better way.

it's not always better.

Look at Folger's before they closed. the constantly blocked traffic on Broadway to back trucks in.