Neighborhood Security ?

[beautyfromashes]

Seriously, what do we get for our taxes anymore.  Now we have to provide services that should be provided by the police?  Pretty soon neighborhoods will be responsible for their own snow removal, sidewalks and streets, park upkeep, street lights, etc.  And schools are all going to be private.  Someone tell me where my taxes are going!

[jdubwaldo]

I will say I have seen KCPD in the neighborhood regularly in the 3 years we have been in our house.  I think it's partially due to the QT a few blocks down the street, but whatever works for them to have a presence works for me. 

[dangerboy]

You could also organize some bicycle patrols.  You could cover a lot of ground and get in some exercise.  As others have said, hiring private security is just a poor substitute for having a real community where people are out on the street interacting with each other and keeping an eye on each other.  The type of "security" you are talking about is something that no police patrol could ever provide.

[loftguy]

Seriously, what do we get for our taxes anymore.  Now we have to provide services that should be provided by the police?  Pretty soon neighborhoods will be responsible for their own snow removal, sidewalks and streets, park upkeep, street lights, etc.  And schools are all going to be private.  Someone tell me where my taxes are going!

I believe your answer can be found in the establishment of Community Improvement Districts, such as those Downtown and in the River Market.

Property owners in those neighborhoods recognized that they weren't getting basic services and that they would not be provided by government entities anytime soon.  They decided to pay themselves and get the services (clean and safe) that they lacked.

Sucks, but that's the facts.  Neighborhoods that are traditional residential communities may have to do the same thing.

Only other thing to do is start the revolution.  (will it be televized?)

[jdubwaldo]

You could also organize some bicycle patrols.  You could cover a lot of ground and get in some exercise.  As others have said, hiring private security is just a poor substitute for having a real community where people are out on the street interacting with each other and keeping an eye on each other.  The type of "security" you are talking about is something that no police patrol could ever provide.

Absolutely true but I'm not sure I totally understand what you mean by doing our own bike patrols.  It sounds like a great idea in theory, but I am not sure this is realistic.  We live in a wonderful neighborhood that we absolutely love and hope to remain in for a very very long time.  It's very mixed - reading between the lines = a lot of younger couples, older couples, some families, a few rentals (unfortunately) but also a lot of people who are older and have lived in their houses for 30 years, so the burden of this would be on a small few.  My husband and I are active, walk to neighborhood establishments, run in the neighborhood, walk our dogs, know our neighbors, are active with the HOA board, do neighborhood watch, etc.  I just think we are all a little more apprehensive right now.

No we should not have to resort to hiring a private security service to patrol our neighborhood sporadically to feel safe in our own homes.  I was shocked when I started looking into this and realized a patrol service is only 12 hours per week.  What about the other 156?

I also agree there is no substitute for watching out for your neighbors and vice versa.  Yet if asking each house in our area to spring $50 a YEAR to have a just a little piece of mind I'm going to lead the charge to do that.  It certainly cannot hurt... 

Have a great weekend all, thanks for your thoughts.  It's beer:30 for me... 

[cdm2p]

Seriously, what do we get for our taxes anymore.  Now we have to provide services that should be provided by the police?  Pretty soon neighborhoods will be responsible for their own snow removal, sidewalks and streets, park upkeep, street lights, etc.  And schools are all going to be private.  Someone tell me where my taxes are going!

I somewhat agree with this point.  We pay for neighborhood security and we do snow plowing in the side streets.  We also pay a little extra to care for some of the green spaces in our neighborhood, including a city park.  Most of the families in the neighborhood send their kids to private schools.  I guess you could surmise that people are willing to pay more for better services but the fear is that city hall would probably squander the money.  That's why they give a little extra money to be administered by a group of volunteers instead of paying taxes to be wasted by a group of professionals.

If you are going to get private security, it's best to hire off duty cops.  Unlike rent-a-cops, off duty cops have the power to arrest somebody.  Uniguard and ameriguard officers can't arrest anyone and call the cops if something comes up.

  I just don't know how much of a deterrent it is to have patrols going around.  I'm not sold on private security but if it makes your neighborhood feel better and safer, go for it.

[nota]

Long ago, we in the 'burbs realized that policing our neighborhood was everyone's job and that the police couldn't be everywhere at all times. 

Neighborhood Watch is a really great organization if you get it going.

[cdm2p]

Long ago, we in the 'burbs realized that policing our neighborhood was everyone's job and that the police couldn't be everywhere at all times. 

Neighborhood Watch is a really great organization if you get it going.

really?  we city people must be really stupid then.

[staubio]

What exactly is a neighborhood watch in practice and how it is distinguished from any normal, reasonable neighborhood where people are paying attention? Do you put people on duty, organize patrols or otherwise formalize the way you are going to monitor the neighborhood? To me, a sign that says "we call police" seemed silly. As opposed to neighbors that see crime occurring and open another Bud Light?

[LenexatoKCMO]

What exactly is a neighborhood watch in practice and how it is distinguished from any normal, reasonable neighborhood where people are paying attention? Do you put people on duty, organize patrols or otherwise formalize the way you are going to monitor the neighborhood? To me, a sign that says "we call police" seemed silly. As opposed to neighbors that see crime occurring and open another Bud Light?

I think it means they probably have a committee of some sort that probably meets and gossips about which of their neighbors may or may not be up to no good. 

[chrizow]

What exactly is a neighborhood watch in practice and how it is distinguished from any normal, reasonable neighborhood where people are paying attention? Do you put people on duty, organize patrols or otherwise formalize the way you are going to monitor the neighborhood? To me, a sign that says "we call police" seemed silly. As opposed to neighbors that see crime occurring and open another Bud Light?

two thoughts:

"neighborhood watch" signs say nothing more than "this is a neighborhood with a few residents who cared enough to make the effort to have neighborhood watch signs installed on the block."  i imagine that the idea is that the signs will tell would-be criminals that people on the block give a shit, so maybe s/he should move along to a block that doesn't.  as chingon aptly stated in the hyde park thread, "crime exists where it is tolerated."  while i doubt the efficacy of these signs in deterring crime, i don't think it's a bad thing to erect a visible reminder that someone on this block gave a shit (at one time anyway - nothing more sad than faded neighborhood watch signs from 1981, which are all over the place).  

as for "neighborhood watch groups" - i.e. not just the signs - i think that what happens is that a few individuals have a brush with crime (or know someone who did, or know someone who knows someone who did), causing them to become "fed up" and to "take back the streets" and launch a crime-fighting campaign.  there is an "unofficial hyde park neighborhood watch" group on facebook that follows this narrative.  i personally think that it's just a way for people to get all worked up and stress themselves out.  newsflash: crime has existed in your neighborhood for a long time, and will continue to exist.  nothing wrong with being vigilant, but going on "patrols" with your schnauzer at night is not going to change anything - if anything it will attract crime to you.  i really don't think one achieves any additional crime-fighting power by waging these OMG/freakout "watch" efforts (which inevitably fizzle once the fear of danger subsides) over just being an aware, good neighbor.  but hey, if it makes people feel better, then whatever.

[dangerboy]

The oldsters in Volker tell us that back in the 1980s they had organized patrols.  People signed up for 2-3 nights per month to drive around the 'hood.  They even purchased big magnetic "Volker Patrol" signs to put on whoever's car as on duty.  Apparently they were able to cover every night of the week for at least a couple of years, until interest waned.

As for the old rusted "Neighborhood watch" signs, our local KCPD guy says to take them down so criminals don't the impression that your neighborhood's vigilance has waned.  He just take them down yourself, don't worry about asking for permission.

[chrizow]

yeah, hyde park had volunteer crime patrols a few times over the years.  i believe first in the 70s, then maybe sometime in the 80s.  not sure if there have been any patrols more recently.  i've heard stories about the patrol shining flashlights into cars with hookers/johns, but that's about it.  i really can't imagine that such patrols would do anything to deter any "real" crime. 

[LenexatoKCMO]

i really can't imagine that such patrols would do anything to deter any "real" crime. 

In the catching people sense probably not - but in the ensuring there are consistently folks out on the streets and sidewalks sense I would think it would be a help.  I would think a burgler out casing targets that sees residents out and about is likely to move along to some other more deserted block.  Of course with a neighborhood the size of HP, you would surely have to compartmentalize into sub areas in order for it to be at all effective - one or two people out on a block could never be "eyes and ears" for an area that covers half of midtown. 

[mlind]

My old neighborhood had block captains & yahoo groups for each block that folded into a neighborhood-wide email alert system. As I mentioned earlier, one person had the responsibility of being the contact for the PD who would alert her to crimes in the area with descriptions (if available) of the perps.  Signs on phone poles help too. 

If neighbors hear that someone nearby has been robbed/mugged/etc., it makes them more alert. 

[nota]

What exactly is a neighborhood watch in practice and how it is distinguished from any normal, reasonable neighborhood where people are paying attention? Do you put people on duty, organize patrols or otherwise formalize the way you are going to monitor the neighborhood? To me, a sign that says "we call police" seemed silly. As opposed to neighbors that see crime occurring and open another Bud Light?

Read the link again. Perhaps you missed that part>

[nota]

two thoughts:

"neighborhood watch" signs say nothing more than "this is a neighborhood with a few residents who cared enough to make the effort to have neighborhood watch signs installed on the block."  i imagine that the idea is that the signs will tell would-be criminals that people on the block give a shit, so maybe s/he should move along to a block that doesn't.  as chingon aptly stated in the hyde park thread, "crime exists where it is tolerated."  while i doubt the efficacy of these signs in deterring crime, i don't think it's a bad thing to erect a visible reminder that someone on this block gave a shit (at one time anyway - nothing more sad than faded neighborhood watch signs from 1981, which are all over the place).  

as for "neighborhood watch groups" - i.e. not just the signs - i think that what happens is that a few individuals have a brush with crime (or know someone who did, or know someone who knows someone who did), causing them to become "fed up" and to "take back the streets" and launch a crime-fighting campaign.  there is an "unofficial hyde park neighborhood watch" group on facebook that follows this narrative.  i personally think that it's just a way for people to get all worked up and stress themselves out.  newsflash: crime has existed in your neighborhood for a long time, and will continue to exist.  nothing wrong with being vigilant, but going on "patrols" with your schnauzer at night is not going to change anything - if anything it will attract crime to you.  i really don't think one achieves any additional crime-fighting power by waging these OMG/freakout "watch" efforts (which inevitably fizzle once the fear of danger subsides) over just being an aware, good neighbor.  but hey, if it makes people feel better, then whatever.

It's not the signs, folks. It's a program. There are no "patrols." It's an awareness program. I encourage you to read the link, sit down with your local law enforcement officer(s) and see if organizing a group would be something you could do.

Or...... maybe those of you with this attitude believe in the nanny state doing everything for you?

Many crimes were averted or ongoing problems stopped, etc in every neighborhood I have lived in that used this program. The biggest obstacle is getting those folks to actually press charges after they see that the perpetrator may be a kid of their neighbor. They just want to let it go at that point.

My most recent neighborhood in KC used the TextCaster system to alert. Pretty funny hearing about 4 neighborhood women calling the police about an ADULT wallet bicycle thief and then them going after him and catching him about a mile away. They were stupid but the story was funny just the same. They had him surrounded when the sheriff's officers arrived. They retrieved the wallet and the bike too.

I actually used it when one of those door to door guys they dump out in neighborhoods came to my door and tried to force himself in. I used the textcaster and lo and behold, all the gals up the street gathered their kids in the houses and locked their doors. The cops came, I signed the complaint. I'm sure the guy got off with a hand slap, but I was never bothered again.

True, most of the times-the crime was kids shooting birds and squirrels in the park with BB guns or bigger kids smoking dope in the park at night. But those lead to vandalism, etc.

Yes, the system DOES help deter crime. I encourage anyone interested in deterring crime in their neighborhood to research the system rather than relying on speculation and negatives.

[jdubwaldo]

nota - I have to say I agree that the neighborhood watch is the most effective option if most people are on board.  chorizo - Also agree it is something that when initially set up is often reactionary instead of pro-active so freaks people out.  Yet if that is what it takes, I'm completely on board to organize this in my neighborhood (which is why I volunteered and suggested it!).  There is no time like the present.  If this is what it takes to gather people together and get people in the habit of watching out for each other and actually calling police and writing down license plate numbers, etc, I'm all for it.

Based partially on comments and feedback here, after looking into this further, there is an option that I think is really good in addition to trying to raise awareness and get neighbors to pay attention to their surroundings.  Apparently you can hire armed off duty KCPD officers with the right to arrest and most of the time would be in market police cars to patrol the neighborhood.  4 hour shifts 5 days a week. 

This would be $20 per house per YEAR in our neighborhood in addition to the whopping $30 annual HOA dues if everyone would participate.  Problem is many people are not supportive of it so we are working on getting the word out.  Communicating with 840 households is difficult.  If we can get just over 1/4 of houses to chip in $50 we are good to go.  I'm very excited, I hope we can make this fly!

If individuals should have to pay for this service is an entirely different another argument, but if less than a quarter of people in the area don't see enough value to throw in $20-$50 per year for this service, then I am probably living in the wrong neighborhood.

[jdubwaldo]

For anyone who cares, I find this could be of interest.

The saga to get a security patrol continues in our neighborhood.  We are working on hiring off duty KCPD officers.  The schtick given by the sargeant who coordinates off duty officers is this...

We, as an HOA, have to do all of the payroll administration ourselves and issue paychecks - including withholding of taxes, social security, etc.  In addition to this, it is likely too difficult and expensive for us to get Worker's Comp insurance, which we would also have to do ourselves.

This leaves me wondering - if KCPD TRULY wants to work on cooperating with neighborhoods, such as ours who are trying to be really proactive about safety, and are willing to pay for it, why not make it easy for us?  They could also use this as a little bit of a revenue stream, god knows our city needs it.  They are giving these guys and gals paychecks anyway, so while the admin would be a little extra work, it is not prohibitive like it is for us.  Also, they can add an Alternative Employer Endorsement to the KCPD Worker's Comp and add the names of the associations who use them to it.  For whatever extra this would cost them, the HOAs pay for it.

There are some associations who have gotten together to do this and administer it, the JC Nichols associations, specifically.  With enough mass, this is fine but with a smaller neighborhood it is simply impossible, and seems ridiculous and makes me furious!

This all seems too easy to be so difficult!

Whom would I contact to discuss/raise the issue?

At the end of the day, maybe they intentionally make it so difficult as to dicsourage their officers to "moonlight" for extra cash?

[dangerboy]

It makes sense, even if it's not the answer you want.  It's a private arrangement between you and the police officers. If the paychecks came from City Hall, then the extra work would have to be paid as overtime.  That's an IRS deal that the city can't control.