Jesus Camp. . .

[phna]

. . .if you haven't seen this movie, see it. BIZARRE!

I know religion is a touchy subject here, but let's have a rational discussion.

After the Jihad, I'll watch the movie.

[DanCa]

. . .if you haven't seen this movie, see it. BIZARRE!

My college aged granddaughter picked it out at Blockbuster because she had seen it and wanted me to see it. I was prepared for a Vacation Bible School type film.

NOPE!!!! No wonder people are down on Christians.

I consider myself a Christian - I believe in God and Jesus. A Christian as differentiated from Jewish or Muslim, etc. I consider Catholics Christian.

I'm really on the fence now. On one hand, I'm still a Christian by my definition, but not by the definition these fanatics use.

What I'd really like to know is why many folks hate Christians like me because they lump all Christian folk together with the fanatical fringe. I don't like the fanatical fringe either.

I know religion is a touchy subject here, but let's have a rational discussion. And watch the movie. I must have lived under a rock for a long time.

I've heard about this movie and have an idea of what it's about, but haven't seen it.  I really try not to lump people into one group because I can see two of them on both sides of my family - dad's side are wacky, beat your kids 'cause the Bible tells you to, if you don't believe exactly as we do you're hell bound, far-right snake tossers and on my mom's side, they're mainstream, accepting and what I call normal Christians.  My dad dragged us more to his side of the spectrum which lead me to outright reject organized religion for myself, but I respect mainstream, accepting Christians as good people. 

And I was sent off to "Jesus Camp" where we couldn't wear shorts in the hundred degree heat, couldn't swim with girls (mixed bathing), were subjected to rock albums being smashed, told the Commies were going to come steal our Bibles and told to physically beat gay men.  I almost got sent home for saying "bull", apparently a cuss word in their circles. 

[Maitre D]

and told to physically beat gay men.  

Bullshit alert!

[DanCa]

I remember seeing some clips of this that include Ted Haggard telling a congregation that all homosexuals will go to hell, yada, yada, yada.....right before he got outed for meth/male prostitution.

I think the hypocrisy of people like Haggard are why some people feel so strongly about some of the Christian Right. I don't think anyone who is genuine in their criticism would really link 95% Christians in with those people.

However, as a non-Christian, I can tell it's very easy to dislike Christians who tell you everything you do is wrong, immoral and will lead to eternal damnation - just because their particular version/interpretation of this book tells them so. And then these same people consistantly break all of the rules in this book that they feel don't apply to them anymore. Again - more hypocrisy.

I saw Ted Haggard's "man whore" the other day at the Home Depot.  I wanted to ask him if he thought Ted was really "cured off the gay", but figured he gets enough harassment.

[DanCa]

That's exactly what I don't get. The Bible tells us "judge not lest ye be judged" - yet they are brainwashing children to believe that their interpretation is the only one and that the rest of us are wrong. Who tells them to judge me and mine?

Would any of you ever tell another person they were wrong, immoral and headed straight to eternal damnation? Why?

My father wouldn't let my mom be friends with a Jewish woman when I was a kid - because he said she was going to hell and he didn't want her in our house.  I was smart enough even back then to see the stupidity in that.  I guess he didn't know I had Jewish friends at school.

[DanCa]

I'm not sure if I would put it that way, but, the way I see things you can't believe in a perfect heaven without also believing in a hell.  Life always works in antithesis: light and dark, good and evil, heros and villians, etc.  Sooo, I believe in that there is a hell and people will go there.  

I believe in gray area and that things are rarely black and white, "with us or against us".

[phna]

I believe in gray area and that things are rarely black and white, "with us or against us".

I don't know who I am quoting but it mirrors those sentiments:

"There can be no justice so long as there are absolute rules".

[DanCa]

I think you can find disturbing religious groups anywhere in the country, but this particular manifestation is a product of a particular social and political milieu that is fascinating to coastal folks (in the same way non-coastal folks love hearing about Paris Hilton, and watching her dopplegangers on shows like the OC).  There's a mutual fascination with the difference between different parts of the country, and the best way to find the differences is to find the grossest manifestation of it (and avoid the 98% of the population that reminds us too much of ourselves).

Speaking of "the OC", it's home to Benny Hinn and Trinity Broadcasting and all their "beg-a-thons".  Nutty religion is everywhere.  

[kcmetro]

Bullshit alert!

Although I don't know about DanCa's experiences, I do know that Rev. Jimmy Swaggart publicly stated that he would kill a gay man if he looked at him in a lustful way.

http://religiousfreaks.com/2005/11/17/j ... mosexuals/

[DanCa]

Bullshit alert!

Let me clarify that. It was around 1980 at Youth For Christ camp.  They rounded up all the boys into an auditorium and the main guy, something "Metzger" read us the usual verses from Leviticus about homosexuality.  He told us if any boy ever touched our penises that we were to beat him like a poisonous snake.  No bullshit.

[Maitre D]

Although I don't know about DanCa's experiences, I do know that Rev. Jimmy Swaggart publicly stated that he would kill a gay man if he looked at him in a lustful way.

http://religiousfreaks.com/2005/11/17/j ... mosexuals/

I find that to be believeable.  Most guys would, and hell: even women will slap a man who does that from time to time.  

The idea that people were advocating physical action tho, is total baloney.  Dan musta misunderstood.

[Maitre D]

Let me clarify that. It was around 1980 at Youth For Christ camp.  They rounded up all the boys into an auditorium and the main guy, something "Metzger" read us the usual verses from Leviticus about homosexuality.  He told us if any boy ever touched our penises that we were to beat him like a poisonous snake.  No bullshit.

Ah, there we go.  Ok, that seems quite believable.

I have to say, I'm pretty much with him on that one.  And I'd hope any male or female reacts violently to any unwanted sexual action against them.

[phna]

... beat him like a poisonous snake...

Did they say no pun intended?

[DanCa]

Ah, there we go.   Ok, that seems quite believable.

I have to say, I'm pretty much with him on that one.  And I'd hope any male or female reacts violently to any unwanted sexual action against them.

He didn't say "unwanted".  And we were only 11 years old, so we were creeped out by him talking about that.  And he didn't say if a "man" touched you (completely different scenario) to beat him.  I don't know, to me it was teaching boys that they should should beat other boys and passing on homophobia.  Obviously unwanted sexual attacks are going to be met with violence, no matter the sex or sexual orientation of those involved.  But my main point was that YFC is pretty nutty.  

[nota]

I'm not sure if I would put it that way, but, the way I see things you can't believe in a perfect heaven without also believing in a hell.  Life always works in antithesis: light and dark, good and evil, heros and villians, etc.  Sooo, I believe in that there is a hell and people will go there.  

Not questioning that. I believe in hell too (well sort of anyway)

But it is my job to keep my own nose clean, not to be messing with others.

[nota]

He didn't say "unwanted".  And we were only 11 years old, so we were creeped out by him talking about that.  And he didn't say if a "man" touched you (completely different scenario) to beat him.  I don't know, to me it was teaching boys that they should should beat other boys and passing on homophobia.  Obviously unwanted sexual attacks are going to be met with violence, no matter the sex or sexual orientation of those involved.  But my main point was that YFC is pretty nutty.  

It's interesting to me that that long ago churches were creeping out kids by talking about sex to them. CHURCHES!! At 11 years old!! Couldn't they find enough religion to teach?

[Tosspot]

Not questioning that. I believe in hell too (well sort of anyway)

Making the assumption that God exists in the first place, I believe it is humans who make hell, not God.

[kcmetro]

Making the assumption that God exists in the first place, I believe it is humans who make hell, not God.

Precisely. No reason for a consiousness like God to bother sending these fleshy beings to a place called hell, just because they don't worship some hippy dude who walked the earth 2,000 years ago. Sounds to me like people who believe in hell are just scared shitless of what they do not know (the unknown).

[DanCa]

It's interesting to me that that long ago churches were creeping out kids by talking about sex to them. CHURCHES!! At 11 years old!! Couldn't they find enough religion to teach?

Exactly!  At that age, I didn't even know what "gay" was, or even understand what he was talking about.  They did have a really cool water slide - that they rarely let us use.  Mostly it was just about scaring kids - fire and brimstone about going to hell, commies taking Bibles, etc.  You shouldn't choose/believe/think you believe religion out of fear. 

[Maitre D]

It's interesting to me that that long ago churches were creeping out kids by talking about sex to them. CHURCHES!! At 11 years old!! Couldn't they find enough religion to teach?

Exactly.  Makes you wonder why the public schools do the same thing to our youth.