Is the P&L District underwhelming? 100% serious question

[ComandanteCero]

P&L Just needs more stuff NEAR IT.  It's in the perfect location if only Downtown KC had more going on. Downtown KC just needs more reasons for people to come downtown in the first place.  No matter how good the food is, there has to be another reason.

A downtown aquarium seems to do the trick in Baltimore, Houston, Atlanta etc.  Those freaking things draw people like crazy.  Build one, it will be worth every dime.

FRIGGING A!!

That all-ages/family day time attraction is definitely missing in the Loop.  

[KCPowercat]

What do you tell tourists/friends about p&l?  Most KC residents shrug it off and talk it down.....instead of talking up amc or the grocery or bristol, etc. Gotta be too cool for school and only like grinder.

[chrizow]

When I say 30 minutes away, I mean "Blue Springs, Grain Valley, and Olathe."  After all, I was merely responding to the question reaised by mean.  In reality, those places are probably more than 30 minutes away from Blue Stem, American, and Capital Grille.  

I'm not talking about Brookside or Prairie Village.

Ultimately, my point is that P&L could have the very best restuarant in the metro (i.e. bluestem, american, and capital grille) and it wouldn't bring people in from Blue Springs, Grain Valley, and Olathe on Tuesday nights.  Fact.  My evidence is the fact that these restuarants do not currently bring in distant suburbanites on weeknights when there is no event close by.  If you wish to debate that point, than so be it.  I think you're wrong.  

are you serious?  

i guarantee you that those places attract people from far-flung areas of the metro on a nightly basis.  sure there are quite a few urbanites and BKS/PV/Mission Hills types dining in these restaurants, but they pull SoJoCo, northlanders, rural homesteaders, and even lawrence people on a nightly basis.  fact.  people will drive 30+ minutes just to eat at these places.  we've done it several times at places 30+ minutes from KC - justus drugstore, krause dining, etc. or 15-20 minutes away like cafe des amis...

[KCMax]

FRIGGING A!!

That all-ages/family day time attraction is definitely missing in the Loop.  

Yes. The Mission Aquarium has definitely stalled - now would be a good time for KC to get on it. Or a natural history museum. I still don't get why we don't have one.

[LenexatoKCMO]

What do you tell tourists/friends about p&l?  Most KC residents shrug it off and talk it down.....instead of talking up amc or the grocery or bristol, etc. Gotta be too cool for school and only like grinder.

I haven't chatted with any tourists lately, but I have certainly never bad mouthed it.  Out of all our extended friends and family, I am probably the most open to going to P&L.  It would be like pulling teeth to get anyone to join us at most of those restaurants and the bars are a non-starter - we don't fit the demos.  

[KC-wildcat]

I feel like I am arguing with Chef about Crown Center.   :x  Just because some of us feel there have been some big let downs and that several aspects of the District's mixed-use mission have been severely compromised and there is major room for improvement, doesnt mean that we want to see it fail, wish it had never hapened, or prefer surface parking lots. 

And I'm not saying that.  I'm not criticizing those who are critical of the current state of P&L.  Though I may disagree with the reasons as to why the retail block is underperforming, I certainly recognize that it is, in fact, underperforming.  Rather, what pisses me off is this mentality that P&L has already failed.  Ya know?  The past tense view.  I hate hearing people say, "oh well, it is what it is."  Don't you guys have any hope that it will improve in the future.  I'm talking to the following peope...

"90% of the restaurant space is leased-- likely with 5-10 year leases. you think the area is going to drastically improve and become "world-class" after Famous Dave's lease expires in 2017?"

"I think the "jeez, let it grow" argument is BS. This isn't an organic development that will take time to mature, it is a master-planned super-district which, if they could have gotten something huge and major and world-class, they'd have done it from the beginning."

"what do we really expect the P+L is going to become as it "matures?"  are we actually hoping the P+L itself is going to improve, or that it's going to cause amazing - world class! - spinoff development?  i personally think neither of these is the case."

"I know that i am not often in the mainstream, but i will say that absolutely no one i know likes the P+L, that the very mention of it brings nothing but groans and mocking, etc."



I don't hate the sentiment that it is currently underwhelming in various aspects.  I hate the sentiment that P&L is a failure and it always will be.  
   

[mean]

What do you tell tourists/friends about p&l?

This is a stupid, vague, and impossible to answer question. Who are these people? 96 year old couple from Dubuque, IA? Probably not going to advise them to visit the P&L on a Saturday night. Frat boys down from Lincoln? Dudes, you gotta check out the P&L! Someone asking where the best place to eat downtown is? Not going to direct them to P&L. Someone asking where to catch a movie? AMC 6 is great, you should check it out!

There is no one answer. It depends entirely on context.

Most KC residents shrug it off and talk it down

No they don't.

fact.  people will drive 30+ minutes just to eat at these places.  we've done it several times at places 30+ minutes from KC - justus drugstore, krause dining, etc. or 15-20 minutes away like cafe des amis...

Thank you! I drive 30+ minutes from KC to eat at places on a fairly regular basis, too, weeknight or not. I don't think it is difficult to imagine someone in Shawnee coming to bluestem on a Tuesday. In fact, I'm sure it happens all the time.

I don't hate the sentiment that it is currently underwhelming in various aspects.  I hate the sentiment that P&L is a failure and it always will be.  

I stand by what you quoted from me there. If Cordish had the ability to pull a major dining coup with a Bobby Flay concept or whatever, they would have done it already. That doesn't mean that the dining scene will never improve, but I don't think it is going overboard to say that, so far, they have utterly failed (there's that word again) to live up to expectations. To me, it is evident in hindsight that they didn't have the ability to get that kind of huge, game-changing culinary tenant. As I pointed out in the quote you offered: if they could have, they would have. And if they couldn't do it then, what reason should I have to believe they will ever be able to? Zero.

Again, that doesn't mean it can't or won't get better. It probably will--it has to, in my opinion, for the thing to survive. But will they ever be able to bring in a major celebrity chef name? Doubt it. That's what I was saying. And that's fine. They don't even need that to meet my current expectations. Just give me one really good restaurant that doesn't have a location or equivalent in the suburbs, or preferably anywhere else within 500+ miles.

[KC-wildcat]

Your argument only works in theory - since the grocery store opened, DT residential has been steady to flat and we have seen next to no additional units come on the market.  Maybe someday the grocery will drive residential demand but its hard to make that case when we aren't adding units or bodies.  

Well, Market Station in RiverMarket has added about 350 units.  The Redevelopment (currently underway) at 10th and Grand will add a couple hundred units.  The Courthouse Lofts (currently underway) on Grand will add about 180 units.  The bottom two floors at Wallstreet tower are being developed into apartments (about 20 units) and we've got people in the building on a regular basis looking at units.  

My buddy's colleague just moved to KC from Boston last Saturday and went apartment shopping.  Didn't know jack about KC except for "Plaza was cool" and "P&L has nightlife."  real estate agent showed him around and he chose an apartment for he and his GF @ Market Station.  Coincidentally, he went to the world cup watch party and P&L art festival last weekend.  he had a good time, obviously.    

[KCPowercat]

I think honestly we are on opposite sides of the same coin.....I just tend to be more positive about this stuff and focus on that. Others want to strictly focus on 'its not world class' or it doesn't have this one restaurant or retailer.

I think many of us are losing site of just how big of a step forward this was.....and the thought of it want continue to mature and grow is just too damn negative for me to get down with.

[chrizow]

i dont think the P+L is a failure.  im actually pretty confident that when the economy fully bounces back, the P+L will provide a net gain in revenue to the city for some period of time.  unlike AKP, i think that the P+L's "underperformance" is pretty amazing, actually, given the state of the economy.  

i do believe that it is almost impossible for an entity like Cordish to attract people like myself to the P+L on anything approaching a regular basis.  KC has enough great local bars and restaurants that we can't begin to patronize all of them like we want to.  why spend our dining and drinking dollars for mediocre product at an expensive price, only to see the money get sucked away to baltimore or wherever?  (again, peachtree and bristol excluded - they have good product for an expensive price).

[LenexatoKCMO]

I don't hate the sentiment that it is currently underwhelming in various aspects.  I hate the sentiment that P&L is a failure and it always will be.  
   

I don't think its a given either way.  Maybe they will find a couple breakthrough retail tennants that help them fill it out - I don't think there is any sign of that tennant on the horizon today.  Maybe they will lure in a couple desireable restaurants that give the area the overall dining credibility to attract the crowds that won't ever fit the bar demos.  Maybe the condo market will warm back up to the point they can build some of the residential it desperately needs.  Or maybe it will continue on pretty much the exact same path its been and stay a successful nightclub district and little else.  I will give Cordish credit in that I think they are still working very hard at it and I think they want very much to succeed at the other uses- I just don't know for sure that they have the competency and/or have built an environment suitable for success.  

[KC-wildcat]

are you serious?  

i guarantee you that those places attract people from far-flung areas of the metro on a nightly basis.  sure there are quite a few urbanites and BKS/PV/Mission Hills types dining in these restaurants, but they pull SoJoCo, northlanders, rural homesteaders, and even lawrence people on a nightly basis.  fact.  people will drive 30+ minutes just to eat at these places.  we've done it several times at places 30+ minutes from KC - justus drugstore, krause dining, etc. or 15-20 minutes away like cafe des amis...

Yeah, I'm dead serious.  Yes, people do travel 30+ minutes to eat at restuarants on week nights.  I am aware that this phenomenon exists.  Is there a large enought number of "these people" that P&L would be transformed into a 7-day a week thriving restuarant mecca if they just had better restuarants?  No.  By and large, the weeknight traffic is driven by local urbanites with a few 30+ minute commuters sprinkled on top.  

[chrizow]

i agree that a couple of "destination" restaurants won't completely turn around the dead P+L dining scene.  it would just be nice to have as options - and would be nice since that sort of thing is what we were promised.

[KCPowercat]

Empty residential isn't going to change a thing. That will come with demand....as long as funk is gone.

[trailerkid]

When I say 30 minutes away, I mean "Blue Springs, Grain Valley, and Olathe."  After all, I was merely responding to the question reaised by mean.  In reality, those places are probably more than 30 minutes away from Blue Stem, American, and Capital Grille.  

I'm not talking about Brookside or Prairie Village.

Ultimately, my point is that P&L could have the very best restuarant in the metro (i.e. bluestem, american, and capital grille) and it wouldn't bring people in from Blue Springs, Grain Valley, and Olathe on Tuesday nights.  Fact.  My evidence is the fact that these restuarants do not currently bring in distant suburbanites on weeknights when there is no event close by.  If you wish to debate that point, than so be it.  I think you're wrong.  

call me a snob if you want, but 99% of the people in Grain Valley or Olathe are families that probably go to the Plaza once or twice/year. most are perfectly happy with Olive Garden and 54th Street and that's why you see that stuff out there. they'd probably go to a show at the Sprint Center and be perfectly content with Ted's or Famous Dave's. there's nothing wrong with this and we need to continue having mid-range fare.

HOWEVER, if you're going to open up an entire street (14th Street) calling itself a Restaurant Row and your anchors are Bice Bistro, 801, Chipotle, Bristol, GB, and Raglan Road-- there is a big problem. it wasn't apparent at first, but it is now a problem.

i would venture to say KC likes to eat just as much as it likes to drink or watch sports. the restaurant scene has probably gotten better over the last 10 years I've been around. when you're going up against established, unique dining options in the W 39th/Volker, Westport, Plaza, Brookside, Rivermarket, Crossroads and now even Columbus Park, Westside, downtown Lawrence and South Leawood locales you need to bring your A game. Cordish brough its C+ game. don't call something "restaurant row" and then turn around and say you need a hotel, aquarium, or pro sports just because your restaurant game isn't good enough. Cordish overpromised the retail and restaurants and underdelivered. The only way P&L becomes a true destination is if it surpassed to equals the amenities of the Plaza.

[KCPowercat]

If some semi-star chef dropped a place down there half of this site would talk it down about being corporate, blah, blah.

[chrizow]

If some semi-star chef dropped a place down there half of this site would talk it down about being corporate, blah, blah.

i doubt it.  most celeb chefs (the actual chefs, not the tv-cooks) became famous for being awesome.  foodies in KC would rejoice if we landed a colicchio, bayless, etc. concept.  even a paula deen or flay concept would be awesome in my book.  these places are "corporate" in a sense, but like Lidia's or Grunauer, they are quality-focused and "act" like a local place even if they are bankrolled from out of town.  by contrast, Pizza Bar feels and tastes like the tax write-off it is.

[LenexatoKCMO]

Well, Market Station in RiverMarket has added about 350 units.  The Redevelopment (currently underway) at 10th and Grand will add a couple hundred units.  The Courthouse Lofts (currently underway) on Grand will add about 180 units.  The bottom two floors at Wallstreet tower are being developed into apartments (about 20 units) and we've got people in the building on a regular basis looking at units.  

That quantity of units is less than the proverbial drop in the bucket.  And what percentage of those new units at MS are occupied?  Its fair to say that the Grocery store hasn't exactly led a stampede downtown.  Thats the other side effect of a district that predominately appeals to 21-30yr olds - none of the folks that want to move DT can apparently afford to.  

[mean]

If some semi-star chef dropped a place down there half of this site would talk it down about being corporate, blah, blah.

Uh, no, not if it was any good. The "corporate" criticism is not leveled at restaurants for being owned by a corporation. It is leveled at restaurants for having shitty corporate food.

[KC-wildcat]

That quantity of units is less than the proverbial drop in the bucket.  And what percentage of those new units at MS are occupied?  Its fair to say that the Grocery store hasn't exactly led a stampede downtown.  Thats the other side effect of a district that predominately appeals to 21-30yr olds - none of the folks that want to move DT can apparently afford to.  

Haha.  That's so ridiculous I almost laughed outloud.  You know why nobody from the 30-50 age range is moving downtown? 

Because KCMO has NO SCHOOLS.  It's not because P&L only appeals to "youthful partiers."  It's not because people are priced out of the market.  It's because once you have kids - generally the +30 demographic - you've gotta move to the burbs.

And I never said the grocery store was leading a stampede of people downtown. I will continue to argue, however, that it makes DTKC MUCH more liveable, and hence, a realistic option for pre-kid adults and empty nesters looking to buy or rent.