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Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments
Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 1:49 pm
by trexel94
Interesting how Omaha and KC are not only keeping SFO (for now) but are also being upgraded to mainline although i'm still nervous for KC since the only other option to the Bay Area is OAK on WN.
Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments
Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 2:13 pm
by Anthony_Hugo98
WoodDraw wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 1:09 pm
Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 10:18 am
They’re getting mighty aggressive in US expansion it seems.
That was a Covid suspension they’re being back on.
Gotcha
Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments
Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 3:08 pm
by dev49
trexel94 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 1:49 pm
Interesting how Omaha and KC are not only keeping SFO (for now) but are also being upgraded to mainline although i'm still nervous for KC since the only other option to the Bay Area is OAK on WN.
I think with the RJ staffing issues it was a mainline or nothing thing. Happy they went with mainline for us instead of nothing. Wonder if that’s what is keeping Portland on Alaska away also.
Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments
Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 3:09 pm
by dev49
Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 2:13 pm
WoodDraw wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 1:09 pm
Anthony_Hugo98 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 10:18 am
They’re getting mighty aggressive in US expansion it seems.
That was a Covid suspension they’re being back on.
Gotcha
Rumors are they are adding Buffalo and Denver also but it hasn’t been announced yet. A little surprised they don’t fly to Denver already
Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments
Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 3:28 pm
by TheUrbanRoo
If KC adds London, what would be the next international city they'd pivot to wanting to add? Paris?
Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments
Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 3:40 pm
by WoodDraw
UMKC Roo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 3:28 pm
If KC adds London, what would be the next international city they'd pivot to wanting to add? Paris?
They can’t support two. Maybe Mexico City? Some southern hub?
Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments
Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 3:52 pm
by TheUrbanRoo
WoodDraw wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 3:40 pm
UMKC Roo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 3:28 pm
If KC adds London, what would be the next international city they'd pivot to wanting to add? Paris?
They can’t support two. Maybe Mexico City? Some southern hub?
Can we do Asia at all? Tokyo?
Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments
Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 4:45 pm
by normalthings
dev49 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 3:08 pm
trexel94 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 1:49 pm
Interesting how Omaha and KC are not only keeping SFO (for now) but are also being upgraded to mainline although i'm still nervous for KC since the only other option to the Bay Area is OAK on WN.
I think with the RJ staffing issues it was a mainline or nothing thing. Happy they went with mainline for us instead of nothing. Wonder if that’s what is keeping Portland on Alaska away also.
STL was cut
Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments
Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 4:46 pm
by normalthings
WoodDraw wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 3:40 pm
UMKC Roo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 3:28 pm
If KC adds London, what would be the next international city they'd pivot to wanting to add? Paris?
They can’t support two. Maybe Mexico City? Some southern hub?
KC alone was sending 700 a day to Europe during the summer pre-Covid. About 1400 including Omaha, Des Moines, Witchita, etc.
KC could fill 2 a day during the summer.
Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments
Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 5:06 pm
by WoodDraw
normalthings wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 4:46 pm
WoodDraw wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 3:40 pm
UMKC Roo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 3:28 pm
If KC adds London, what would be the next international city they'd pivot to wanting to add? Paris?
They can’t support two. Maybe Mexico City? Some southern hub?
KC alone was sending 700 a day to Europe during the summer pre-Covid. About 1400 including Omaha, Des Moines, Witchita, etc.
KC could fill 2 a day during the summer.
Seems strange to say that we would have to spend millions of dollars to get one and go straight to saying who not two?
I’d like to see a oneworld and sky team offering. Color me skeptical.
Now if you mean like Aer Lingus and a discount carrier, maybe.
But every high mileage flyer will just stay with their legacy mileage programs.
Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments
Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 5:17 pm
by normalthings
You have to prove the market first. Once 1 makes it work, others pile in.
Pittsburgh had 2 or 3 to Europe pre-Covid.
Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments
Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 6:52 pm
by dev49
normalthings wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 4:45 pm
dev49 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 3:08 pm
trexel94 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 1:49 pm
Interesting how Omaha and KC are not only keeping SFO (for now) but are also being upgraded to mainline although i'm still nervous for KC since the only other option to the Bay Area is OAK on WN.
I think with the RJ staffing issues it was a mainline or nothing thing. Happy they went with mainline for us instead of nothing. Wonder if that’s what is keeping Portland on Alaska away also.
STL was cut
I’m aware. I was talking about here not STL
Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments
Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2022 7:00 pm
by dev49
normalthings wrote: ↑Fri Oct 07, 2022 5:17 pm
You have to prove the market first. Once 1 makes it work, others pile in.
Pittsburgh had 2 or 3 to Europe pre-Covid.
Then they all left pre covid. PIT isn’t very smart with their money. They just kept throwing it around to get more but they they were spread too thin and everyone left. They paid again to get BA to come after everyone pulled out. They would be smart to just stick with them for awhile before adding a 2nd.
But I will say, if one does work usually another shows up. Just have to make sure the first one works and whatever comes next doesn't torpedo both.
Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments
Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2022 12:17 am
by STLguy1
STL Lufthansa service on wide body aircrafts with 255 seats is looking good.
Lufthansa loads
June 98%
July over 98%
August 92%
September 91.2%
Lufthansa has said "This has been the most successful launch of a new market in memory.”
Now granted St. Louis has a large EU/German corporate connection and that does help indeed. Airlines like business travelers on these flights... they pay more. Hence the larger aircraft and larger first class / biz class options there are.
We need to build on not just a leisure aspect of travelers IMO. We need to get business leaders to come to the table here.
Does anyone think Iceland will come back to KC. The first year the flights were at 82% in May 2018. By 2019, they were at 68% load factors. Which isn't that bad overall. However, that was on a 183 seat 757-200 single aisle. The airline cited that aircraft grounding etc. caused the cease in flights. They also cut SFO at the same time, and still have not returned there. We had given them subsidies then to come, would we need to do the same now to restart service... anyone's thoughts?
Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments
Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2022 1:02 am
by WoodDraw
As someone that flies transatlantic a few times a year, I never even considered Iceland Air.
I try not to extrapolate my travel habits to others, but it would take a lot to kick me off the sky network. But I could be convinced to status match to oneworld if it got something interesting.
The rest are just tourist flights.
Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments
Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2022 1:04 am
by normalthings
STLguy1 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 08, 2022 12:17 am
STL Lufthansa service on wide body aircrafts with 255 seats is looking good.
Lufthansa loads
June 98%
July over 98%
August 92%
September 91.2%
Lufthansa has said "This has been the most successful launch of a new market in memory.”
Now granted St. Louis has a large EU/German corporate connection and that does help indeed. Airlines like business travelers on these flights... they pay more. Hence the larger aircraft and larger first class / biz class options there are.
We need to build on not just a leisure aspect of travelers IMO. We need to get business leaders to come to the table here.
Does anyone think Iceland will come back to KC. The first year the flights were at 82% in May 2018. By 2019, they were at 68% load factors. Which isn't that bad overall. However, that was on a 183 seat 757-200 single aisle. The airline cited that aircraft grounding etc. caused the cease in flights. They also cut SFO at the same time, and still have not returned there. We had given them subsidies then to come, would we need to do the same now to restart service... anyone's thoughts?
I could see an Icelandair marketing package or fee waiver but wouldn’t want us to put up a revenue guarantee. Save that for a bigger player.
KC to Iceland on their preferred aircraft would do well. They had planned to bring KC back before Covid got in the way.
Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments
Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2022 8:01 pm
by dev49
Personally, I think Iceland should be a last resort if you know they would be the only option for at least the next 2 years. I think if they come back, that means no major is going to be interested for awhile because that flight would cut into their base. I get business and some others wouldn’t fly them, but enough leisure would that it would make nervous. Iceland air would be way better than Play though.
Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments
Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 4:23 am
by STLguy1
Cleveland Aer Lingus flight is 12 million for 3 years.
https://www.cleveland.com/entertainment ... years.html
They did a great PR smoke screen release to the public last week. Not so cool. That's a big chunk of change for the size of jet, number of flights and airline.
Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments
Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 10:15 am
by alejandro46
STLguy1 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 14, 2022 4:23 am
Cleveland Aer Lingus flight is 12 million for 3 years.
https://www.cleveland.com/entertainment ... years.html
They did a great PR smoke screen release to the public last week. Not so cool. That's a big chunk of change for the size of jet, number of flights and airline.
Wow, some eye watering figures but I'm not sure if it's entirely apples to apples if I am reading it right.
The incentive for Aer Lingus is not a grant or direct subsidy; rather, it’s a minimum revenue guarantee, payable only if the flight doesn’t meet certain monthly performance goals.
“It’s expensive to start in a new city,” said Reid Moody, chief strategy and planning officer at Aer Lingus. “The investment really does de-risk the first 18 months especially.”
CLE is a minimum revenue guarentee of $11.8M, while the Lufthansa and BA deals in STL and Pittsburgh referenced are $5m and $3m, 2 year subsidies respectively. So the CLE figure sounds more reasonable for Aer Lingus, but Pittsburgh probably has significantly more flights and buying power than CLE so it may end up being a wash.
Re: KCI Flight Schedule Adjustments
Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2022 10:19 am
by normalthings
alejandro46 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 14, 2022 10:15 am
STLguy1 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 14, 2022 4:23 am
Cleveland Aer Lingus flight is 12 million for 3 years.
https://www.cleveland.com/entertainment ... years.html
They did a great PR smoke screen release to the public last week. Not so cool. That's a big chunk of change for the size of jet, number of flights and airline.
Wow, some eye watering figures but I'm not sure if it's entirely apples to apples if I am reading it right.
The incentive for Aer Lingus is not a grant or direct subsidy; rather, it’s a minimum revenue guarantee, payable only if the flight doesn’t meet certain monthly performance goals.
“It’s expensive to start in a new city,” said Reid Moody, chief strategy and planning officer at Aer Lingus. “The investment really does de-risk the first 18 months especially.”
CLE is a minimum revenue guarentee of $11.8M, while the Lufthansa and BA deals in STL and Pittsburgh referenced are $5m and $3m, 2 year subsidies respectively. So the CLE figure sounds more reasonable for Aer Lingus, but Pittsburgh probably has significantly more flights and buying power than CLE so it may end up being a wash.
STL also has significant private ticket purchase commitments of an undisclosed amount.