KCRag Forum

I like the "Fusion" plan the most. It holds the street grid and creates a North-South pedestrian promenade that connects everything.

Here's an 'honorable mention': https://americas.uli.org/2021-uli-hines ... niversity/

DaveKCMO wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 10:24 am Here's an 'honorable mention': https://americas.uli.org/2021-uli-hines ... niversity/

I really appreciate the idea of hurrying the E loop there. There is a lot of decaying property across that way, that would be huge to help connect that to downtown.

Is there any kind of budget to this competition, or is it just more design focused?

The unimaginative minds of Americans never fail to amaze me. You're given a blank canvas, and that's all you can come up with? LOL

im2kull wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:41 am The unimaginative minds of Americans never fail to amaze me. You're given a blank canvas, and that's all you can come up with? LOL

Show us your proposal

TheLastGentleman wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:50 am

im2kull wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:41 am The unimaginative minds of Americans never fail to amaze me. You're given a blank canvas, and that's all you can come up with? LOL

Show us your proposal

Go google photos of any European city core. You'll find that nearly every city has a landmark pedestrian street full of activity. Tons of retail, dining, and PEOPLE. That's probably a great place to start. There's a reason virtually every city in Europe has at least one major pedestrian street.

im2kull wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:52 amGo google photos of any European city core. You'll find that nearly every city has a landmark pedestrian street full of activity. Tons of retail, dining, and PEOPLE. That's probably a great place to start. There's a reason virtually every city in Europe has at least one major pedestrian street.

If this isn’t a pedestrian street, what is it?

im2kull wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:52 am

TheLastGentleman wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:50 am

im2kull wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:41 am The unimaginative minds of Americans never fail to amaze me. You're given a blank canvas, and that's all you can come up with? LOL

Show us your proposal

Go google photos of any European city core. You'll find that nearly every city has a landmark pedestrian street full of activity. Tons of retail, dining, and PEOPLE. That's probably a great place to start. There's a reason virtually every city in Europe has at least one major pedestrian street.

I kind of agree. I was expecting more from this project. Some of the proposals are decent and have potential, but most look like they were just thrown together without much thought as if to just complete a mandatory homework assignment. I looked through most when the link was posted.

Having said that, I don't see a pedestrian corridor like what you see in Europe working in KC or really any American city outside a few. Even Chicago, SF, Seattle etc don't really have anything like you see in Europe. Broadway in Times Square has sort of a pedestrian corridor, but it's not the same either.

European cities are just built different. I think if you tried to build a true pedestrian promenade in that in that location, it would fail big time. There is not even a pedestrian corridor in DC in places like Chinatown where you are on top of busy subway stations, there is an arena (that is normally used every single day) and tons of retail and you are in the heart of a vibrant city.

I love the corridors in Europe. Some cities like Birmingham, Rotterdam, Frankfurt, Munich etc have miles of them. Even smaller cities like Nuremberg have many streets/blocks that are pedestrian only. But they also have very strict restrictions on bringing cars into the center city. I just don't think this will ever be a thing in the USA.

And why is the east village not master planned with improvements/modifications to the east loop? What you do with that highway is going to make a huge difference in what you can do with the east village. They really need to be planned as one, especially if you are trying to put a stadium in there.

Not to take us too far off topic, but a pedestrianized Nichols Rd through the heart of the Plaza is the pedestrian street you seek. ROW wide enough to add additional seating, shops, food, etc in the middle of the street. Could really help invigorate things. (Particularly once new apartments are built above the two-story original buildings.)

I'd also point out that the Hines competition does have a financial analysis component to it and asks for realistic proposals which is perhaps the reason you don't see totally pie in the sky concepts. Also, the site is big, but not so big that a unique development doesn't risk becoming a kind of weird Park Place type artificial place if you do too much (or not enough).

Was hoping to see concepts with buildings fused into the stadium, like Toronto hotel into stadium...
https://www.google.com/search?q=toronto ... f_Kp6Izm2M

smh wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:21 pm Not to take us too far off topic, but a pedestrianized Nichols Rd through the heart of the Plaza is the pedestrian street you seek. ROW wide enough to add additional seating, shops, food, etc in the middle of the street. Could really help invigorate things. (Particularly once new apartments are built above the two-story original buildings.)

I'd also point out that the Hines competition does have a financial analysis component to it and asks for realistic proposals which is perhaps the reason you don't see totally pie in the sky concepts. Also, the site is big, but not so big that a unique development doesn't risk becoming a kind of weird Park Place type artificial place if you do too much (or not enough).

Yeah, I was thinking the same about the plaza, but I'm not sure it has a dense enough retail scene at least right now. I think if it were redone with a pedestrian only corridor in mind, it might just work simply because the plaza is surrounded by plenty of parking and it's already an existing focal point of a large urbanized area.

I think it would need a total redo though, not just closing it off to cars. Would be ideal if you can punch jc nichols through as a pedestrian corridor to the new streetcar stop on Brookside. Redevelop the tennis courts and remove the parking garage next to cheesecake factory. Then you have a pedestrian corridor from the streetcar through the heart of the plaza. That actually might work.

We only armchair quarterback here.

im2kull wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 11:52 am There's a reason virtually every city in Europe has at least one major pedestrian street.

Because they were organically developed well before the personal automobile and don’t have as lenient of eminent domain laws (if at all) apples to oranges type of comparison

GRID wrote: ↑Sun Feb 28, 2021 1:40 pm
I think it would need a total redo though, not just closing it off to cars. Would be ideal if you can punch jc nichols through as a pedestrian corridor to the new streetcar stop on Brookside. Redevelop the tennis courts and remove the parking garage next to cheesecake factory. Then you have a pedestrian corridor from the streetcar through the heart of the plaza. That actually might work.

I like this

Pedestrian streets work when you have a good mix of high density office and residential for many blocks around them in all directions, and high utilization of residents walking places and taking mass transit as their primary method of moving about.

The best method to redevelop the East Village is using multiple development partners all designing their own mixed-use projects using tried-and-true urbanity.

Downtown lacks enough spaces specifically designed for restaurants.

Pedestrian spaces do not inherently draw pedestrians. They need to be in spaces where the pedestrian traffic is already intense. For instance, Times Square’s pedestrianization works because it’s a tourist attraction in Midtown Manhattan, so there were always going to be crowds no matter what. KC, like most US cities, doesn’t really have anywhere with a permanent concentration of pedestrians at that level

TheLastGentleman wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 11:07 am Pedestrian spaces do not inherently draw pedestrians. They need to be in spaces where the pedestrian traffic is already intense.

The principle of induced demand would prove otherwise.

Case in point, look at the dog park at 32nd/N Oak where NKC and KC meet. It went from a giant empty field where no one went before to a space used by 100+ people at once. BarK is another good example of this. It was a grassy field to a crazy busy location and it's 100% designed to be safe for people and their pets as a pedestrian area

Line Creek Greenway went from woods to a trail with a parking problem.

A good pedestrian area will drive use just like widening a road increases how many cars use it. A badly designed one will not.

I don’t buy the induced demand argument here much for pedestrians.

I buy it for the plaza though.

In some of these proposals, I'm not a big fan of so many of these street-level plazas and "small ponds."

https://vo-general.s3.amazonaws.com/09e ... CDicrXw%3D

I have no problem with interior "lanes" and plazas/courtyards if they have restaurants surrounding or along them that have outdoor seating. But just having all these plazas everywhere with no real purpose is a waste imo.

I'd rather just see traditional planning with buildings bordering all four sides of the block with multiple entrances to apartment buildings, offices, hotels, and businesses.

TheLastGentleman wrote: ↑Mon Mar 01, 2021 11:07 am Pedestrian spaces do not inherently draw pedestrians. They need to be in spaces where the pedestrian traffic is already intense. For instance, Times Square’s pedestrianization works because it’s a tourist attraction in Midtown Manhattan, so there were always going to be crowds no matter what. KC, like most US cities, doesn’t really have anywhere with a permanent concentration of pedestrians at that level.

Largest crowds outside events tend to be along major transit lines that have an attraction or major function (in KC's case, Union Station, RM, etc not large but are draws). To take advantage of most natural pedestrian activity, the stadium should probably be along streetcar line, like where the casino is. But that area isn't conducive to having a lot of hirise residential/hotel/office, possible for some but not a lot. Washington Sq Park is probably the most ideal location in terms of naturally attracting daily crowds/visitors outside stadium events.

So if located in E Village, something would have to be built up to draw crowds that is naturally most active along streetcar line. An Indep Ave streetcar line isn't too realistic given the tax base probably isn't there, maybe in a couple decades. Building up residential as much as possible (like Wrigleyville area) might be best bet but also place as many publicly accessible daily functions like move baseball museums, maybe library, local govt functions, etc. Have a hard time imagine broad range of retail outside some serving residents making it here. Bars/pubs that serve residents/hotel guests should do fine between events if enough residents.