KCRag Forum

Posted: **Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:35 pm**

normalthings wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:15 pm I already know the answers/challenges to my rant but....

I am really not interested in this if there is no rail segment and I hate that it takes so much time and money to study bus on routes we already studied multiple times. The process is bloated and no one here can fix it. Omaha is MAYBE the closest I've seen to cutting the red tape. They figured out how to fund rail a new way and took their previous studies with minor adjustments to construction.

There actually hasn't been a formal study to turn 31st Street service into MAX BRT (which has a very important question to answer about Linwood vs. 31st since KCATA can't operate frequent service on both). The goal with East/West was to not run two separate studies -- MAX and a short "KU Med" streetcar study like NorthRail is doing. I'd call that being efficient, but it was my idea so I'm biased.

Posted: **Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:38 pm**

DaveKCMO wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:35 pm
normalthings wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:15 pm I already know the answers/challenges to my rant but....

I am really not interested in this if there is no rail segment and I hate that it takes so much time and money to study bus on routes we already studied multiple times. The process is bloated and no one here can fix it. Omaha is MAYBE the closest I've seen to cutting the red tape. They figured out how to fund rail a new way and took their previous studies with minor adjustments to construction.
There actually hasn't been a formal study to turn 31st Street service into MAX BRT (which has a very important question to answer about Linwood vs. 31st since KCATA can't operate frequent service on both). The goal with East/West was to not run two separate studies -- MAX and a short "KU Med" streetcar study like NorthRail is doing. I'd call that being efficient, but it was my idea so I'm biased.

A spur to KU MED? At least that spur can keep going somewhere one day.

Posted: **Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:21 am**

normalthings wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:15 pm I already know the answers/challenges to my rant but....

I am really not interested in this if there is no rail segment and I hate that it takes so much time and money to study bus on routes we already studied multiple times. The process is bloated and no one here can fix it. Omaha is MAYBE the closest I've seen to cutting the red tape. They figured out how to fund rail a new way and took their previous studies with minor adjustments to construction.

While we haven't studied 31st, I understand the sentiment 100%. It does feel like a lot of overkill and red tape for a corridor that (should be) obvious for a next level investment.

But hey, good things can't ever come easy with good planning and good transportation.

Posted: **Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:46 am**

SilentSpades24 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:21 am While we haven't studied 31st, I understand the sentiment 100%. It does feel like a lot of overkill and red tape for a corridor that (should be) obvious for a next level investment.

Some would say these are just "required items".

Posted: **Sat Jan 28, 2023 10:24 am**

SilentSpades24 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:21 am
normalthings wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:15 pm I already know the answers/challenges to my rant but....

I am really not interested in this if there is no rail segment and I hate that it takes so much time and money to study bus on routes we already studied multiple times. The process is bloated and no one here can fix it. Omaha is MAYBE the closest I've seen to cutting the red tape. They figured out how to fund rail a new way and took their previous studies with minor adjustments to construction.
While we haven't studied 31st, I understand the sentiment 100%. It does feel like a lot of overkill and red tape for a corridor that (should be) obvious for a next level investment.

But hey, good things can't ever come easy with good planning and good transportation.

Wasn’t 31st/Linwood at least partially studied as part of the next rail package in 2013? Even if just preliminary, it seems the initial work has been done, so they should be able to build off of that no?

I personally thought the 31st routing that connects to SW BLVD down to KU Med is a good bet FWIW; wide roadway, ties into a Blvd that’ll be a possible expansion in the future so interlining would be a shoe in. Seems 39th would be better suited to a MAX style line than it would trying to cram in a SC.

Posted: **Sun Jan 29, 2023 11:33 am**

NextRail was very high level (and now it's 10 years old!). It also didn't go this far east (stadiums vs Prospect) or west (KU Med vs Main).

Also, the starter line wasn't even open and construction costs have basically doubled between the starter line and the Main Street extension.

Linwood Complete Street study just looked at BRT at a very high level and was mostly focused on bike and pedestrian improvements.

Seriously, this is absolutely necessary if you want to actually build something -- BRT or streetcar.

Posted: **Sun Jan 29, 2023 2:49 pm**

I don't see any reason to build dedicated transit from KU/KCK to TSC.
It's a loser. Nobody in KC moves east to west or west to east past State Line.
KC is so far behind and the TSC is so disparate that it makes no sense.

KC should focus exclusively on developing the core and bringing back far-flung amenities to the core.
We can't change the location of TSC, just like we couldn't save the location of Kemper. After the Royals move there will be no (zero) reasons to think of rail to TSC for any reason. E/W Rainbow to Troost on 39th is fine, anything else would be a waste IMO.

Posted: **Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:24 pm**

Jblanco wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 2:49 pm I don't see any reason to build dedicated transit from KU/KCK to TSC.
It's a loser.

I hate to say it, but some of the expansion talk sometimes feels self-serving. Some in the transit industry want to expand everywhere because it brings more money and power to the centralized authority. The mayor/council seem to have loooked negatively to similar expansion at the Port Authority in recent years and knocked them down a few rungs. Transit Authority should be mindful of that when tempted to create an East Coast city-style large pot to pull from.

Posted: **Sun Jan 29, 2023 6:39 pm**

You do realize that streetcar is not owned or operated by KCATA (the officially designated centralized authority)? It's owned and operated by KCMO (with the Kansas City Streetcar Authority* overseeing operations on their behalf, who in turn contracted operations and maintenance to a professional third party).

*Unlike KCATA, the Streetcar Authority has no legal authority despite the name. It's a simple nonprofit with no unique statutory authority at all.

Regardless, if the city wanted to shut down any east/west expansion talk -- and I assure that probably would have happened by now -- they could do that at any time since they hold multiple seats on the KCSA board and control the annual budgets. Not to mention staff is very deferential to KCMO guidance.

Posted: **Sun Jan 29, 2023 11:24 pm**

DaveKCMO wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 6:39 pm You do realize that streetcar is not owned or operated by KCATA (the officially designated centralized authority)? It's owned and operated by KCMO (with the Kansas City Streetcar Authority* overseeing operations on their behalf, who in turn contracted operations and maintenance to a professional third party).

*Unlike KCATA, the Streetcar Authority has no legal authority despite the name. It's a simple nonprofit with no unique statutory authority at all.

Regardless, if the city wanted to shut down any east/west expansion talk -- and I assure that probably would have happened by now -- they could do that at any time since they hold multiple seats on the KCSA board and control the annual budgets. Not to mention staff is very deferential to KCMO guidance.

Your desire for an expanded, single-funding mechanism and large expansion of the transportation system wouldn't wrap all current transportation systems into one overarching hierarchy?

Posted: **Mon Jan 30, 2023 12:30 am**

beautyfromashes wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 11:24 pm
DaveKCMO wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 6:39 pm You do realize that streetcar is not owned or operated by KCATA (the officially designated centralized authority)? It's owned and operated by KCMO (with the Kansas City Streetcar Authority* overseeing operations on their behalf, who in turn contracted operations and maintenance to a professional third party).

*Unlike KCATA, the Streetcar Authority has no legal authority despite the name. It's a simple nonprofit with no unique statutory authority at all.

Regardless, if the city wanted to shut down any east/west expansion talk -- and I assure that probably would have happened by now -- they could do that at any time since they hold multiple seats on the KCSA board and control the annual budgets. Not to mention staff is very deferential to KCMO guidance.
Your desire for an expanded, single-funding mechanism and large expansion of the transportation system wouldn't wrap all current transportation systems into one overarching hierarchy?

Can you re-explain what the problem is? KCATA is notable in that they openly state they don't care who or what manages/owns/operate they just want KC to expand transit. IMHO getting as much under a single brand as possible is best.

Single structure transit systems seem to be the easiest to use and most efficient in my traves overseas. 2nd is LRT/Subway/Bus under 1 umbrella and commuter under another like some US cities have. WORST is the NYC model where you have 3-4 commuter RRs, 2 subway RRs, and a separate water system.

Posted: **Mon Jan 30, 2023 1:11 am**

normalthings wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 12:30 am Can you re-explain what the problem is? KCATA is notable in that they openly state they don't care who or what manages/owns/operate they just want KC to expand transit.

KCATA is very small comparatively and seems run very well. And having transportation under one umbrella seems more efficient. But, there seems to be a direct increase in corruption as systems grow. More money, more political power, kickbacks, patronage, corruption, etc. There’s been wide abuse scandals in most cities with large authorities (DC, NY, Boston, etc). So, plans for massively expanded taxing authority, nepotism for positions on boards, growth of systems beyond what demand is there, connections to organizations with large revenue funds can cause some concern.

Posted: **Mon Jan 30, 2023 2:09 am**

beautyfromashes wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 1:11 am
normalthings wrote: ↑Mon Jan 30, 2023 12:30 am Can you re-explain what the problem is? KCATA is notable in that they openly state they don't care who or what manages/owns/operate they just want KC to expand transit.
KCATA is very small comparatively and seems run very well. And having transportation under one umbrella seems more efficient. But, there seems to be a direct increase in corruption as systems grow. More money, more political power, kickbacks, patronage, corruption, etc. There’s been wide abuse scandals in most cities with large authorities (DC, NY, Boston, etc). So, plans for massively expanded taxing authority, nepotism for positions on boards, growth of systems beyond what demand is there, connections to organizations with large revenue funds can cause some concern.

And this is not a concern with MODOT? Like if you are describing anything its state highway DOTs

Posted: **Tue Feb 07, 2023 6:23 pm**

Option 1: Streetcar

31st then likely Linwood terminating at VA Medical (roughly). Standard bus could maybe go to TSC

Option2: BRT

31st then Linwood to TSC BRT

Posted: **Tue Feb 07, 2023 9:28 pm**

You didn't say hello?

Posted: **Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:14 pm**

normalthings wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 6:23 pm Option 1: Streetcar

31st then likely Linwood terminating at VA Medical (roughly). Standard bus could maybe go to TSC

Option2: BRT

31st then Linwood to TSC BRT

Linwood is absolutely CRAZY right now with traffic. I know theres been talk about a road diet on it, but I don't see how that happens. You have to wait a very long time just to turn onto it because of so many cars and when I've tried to walk my dog across it, we have to sprint to not get flattened.

Posted: **Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:08 pm**

beautyfromashes wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 10:14 pm
normalthings wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 6:23 pm Option 1: Streetcar

31st then likely Linwood terminating at VA Medical (roughly). Standard bus could maybe go to TSC

Option2: BRT

31st then Linwood to TSC BRT
Linwood is absolutely CRAZY right now with traffic. I know theres been talk about a road diet on it, but I don't see how that happens. You have to wait a very long time just to turn onto it because of so many cars and when I've tried to walk my dog across it, we have to sprint to not get flattened.

I like Linwood because there are more opportunities for dense regeneration, center running (and potentially travel speed imho). Sure there can be busy periods but the purpose of the streetcar is to take some of those cars off the road and somehow we once managed Linwood with rail on it.

I don't even think Linwood is terribly bad traffic wise most of the time. Maybe by KC standards but that is because we expect everything to be Service Level A with a 60-70MPH speed limit

Posted: **Wed Feb 08, 2023 12:54 am**

normalthings wrote: ↑Tue Feb 07, 2023 11:08 pm I don't even think Linwood is terribly bad traffic wise most of the time. Maybe by KC standards but that is because we expect everything to be Service Level A with a 60-70MPH speed limit

Sure, there are times when I don’t have to gun it between waiting cars and hope that someone i didn’t see isn’t flying the other direction. Sundays are nice. But, in the evening right now it is bumper to bumper between Main and Broadway and Main and Gillham. Of course, Armour is closed and lanes cut everywhere for the streetcar, but if you diet lanes this would be the new normal. Of course, SW Trafficway is the reason. Linwood is the only connection to it and all traffic funnels down Linwood to get on it. With future KC growth, probably only going to get worse.

Posted: **Wed Feb 08, 2023 2:37 am**

https://twitter.com/TomGerend/status/16 ... 00/photo/1

@TomGerend
East-West #kcstreetcar alternative presented tonight for public input & feedback.

-KU Med to Van Brunt (VA Hospital), with connector/future phase to stadium grounds
-west of Main/Broadway on 39th St
-north/south on Main or Broadway
-east of Main on Linwood or 31st

Posted: **Wed Feb 08, 2023 2:50 am**

alejandro46 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 2:37 am https://twitter.com/TomGerend/status/16 ... 00/photo/1

@TomGerend
East-West #kcstreetcar alternative presented tonight for public input & feedback.

-KU Med to Van Brunt (VA Hospital), with connector/future phase to stadium grounds
-west of Main/Broadway on 39th St
-north/south on Main or Broadway
-east of Main on Linwood or 31st

I am team 39th > Broadway > Linwood with Center Running along all (where possible).

I like hitting those dense sections of Broadway, regeneration sites along Linwood, and doing it all faster and with fewer disruptions then main street rail.

Something I want to know better is what % of the ancillary upgrades along main are paid for by KC Streetcar? Are the new sewers and sidewalks included in the Streetcar budget?

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KU/KCK <-----> TSC East/West Transit

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