KCRag Forum

I agree with kcp. We need a master plan so we can go after funding when it comes available.

100%. The whole loop could use a new master plan to tackle all of these issues in concert.

1. mitigate any traffic issues from removing N. Loop.
2. Additional infrastructure changes from DT Stadium
3. Remove North Loop

The continual slow down and clogging on the east loop just from the Broadway bridge and west loop ramp closures hints at the mess north loop removal could be without a massive redesign of the east loop.

I'm genuinely curious, why does nobody ever talk the West loop?

AlkaliAxel wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 2:33 pm I'm genuinely curious, why does nobody ever talk the West loop?

It's at the edge of an incredibly steep grade leading down to the West Bottoms. The bluff is its own natural barrier to pedestrian or development connectivity. What really could we reclaim from it?

A magnificent City Beautiful park on the highest escarpment in town.

moderne wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 2:44 pm A magnificent City Beautiful park on the highest escarpment in town.

We can dream

If building a freeway will induce demand, then removing a freeway will reduce demand. There will be a momentary shock whenever a piece of freeway gets removed, but people will adapt quickly to find different routes.

All freeways are just excess that can be removed, it’s just politics that keeps them there

TheLastGentleman wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 3:14 pm If building a freeway will induce demand, then removing a freeway will reduce demand. There will be a momentary shock whenever a piece of freeway gets removed, but people will adapt quickly to find different routes.

All freeways are just excess that can be removed, it’s just politics that keeps them there

I disagree with this. The "interstate" is instrumental to facilitating city to city transit as well as from outlying areas to urban areas.

They are a necessary evil. They should not have run directly though the center of town. 71 for example, is something that has destroyed a portion of our city for the benefits of connecting fast growing Belton, Lee Summit etc.

The West loop is on an area that has never been developed and likely never would. It is a connector between Kansas and KCI.

On the topic at hand, the lane splits and narrowing needs to be studied and changed in order to reduce chokepoints and not necessarilly just "add lanes." Maybe reduce lanes and exits is necessary. There was some notes and recommendations on this in the Beyond the Loop study where they noted it would add like 5 minutes at peak time to loop travel time without the N loop.

Might be an unpopular opinion: we shouldn't worry so much about traffic times.

There's wayyyy too much focus & care about traffic times & jams on this forum. We are the quickest commute times in the country. We can give a little commute time to get a better city. People get too worried about removing a road or highway even on this forum and the stats say we have plenty to give and still be considered a quick commute city.

We are fine with traffic if we take out some roads. It will still be fast overall.

AlkaliAxel wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 4:22 pm Might be an unpopular opinion: we shouldn't worry so much about traffic times.

There's wayyyy too much focus & care about traffic times & jams on this forum. We are the quickest commute times in the country. We can give a little commute time to get a better city. People get too worried about removing a road or highway even on this forum and the stats say we have plenty to give and still be considered a quick commute city.

We are fine with traffic if we take out some roads. It will still be fast overall.

You’ll win ZERO voters over with that attitude unfortunately, ease of vehicle travel in KC is ingrained in peoples mentality so much so that they have borderline Stockholm syndrome

AlkaliAxel wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 4:22 pm Might be an unpopular opinion: we shouldn't worry so much about traffic times.

There's wayyyy too much focus & care about traffic times & jams on this forum. We are the quickest commute times in the country. We can give a little commute time to get a better city. People get too worried about removing a road or highway even on this forum and the stats say we have plenty to give and still be considered a quick commute city.

We are fine with traffic if we take out some roads. It will still be fast overall.

I agree heartily but as Hugo says there's just no way. Politics are important materially. I think identifying choke points (typically exits) and reducing their number, especially in dense areas could make a lot of sense for everyone though. Our loop has way too many on-ramps and exits.

They''re gonna be forced to adjust over time anyways things get whittled away and centralized in the city. Especially removing those highways.

There are some significant choke points in the loop that need addressing prior to capping I670 and removing North Loop because there will be re-routed traffic from existing I-70. KCK will flat out not be OK with the removal without some mitigation done, if at all.

In particular, where I-70 diverts from 4 lanes down to 1 into I670 in the South West corner of loop, and then in Southeast corner where people are trying to cut across 670 to go on I29N and 71S. Look at Page 38 for proposed re-striping of those areas in particular.

https://www.marc.org/Transportation/Spe ... RKING.aspx

I don't think that what seems politically feasible right now is a good reason not to pursue something that is otherwise good policy. Public opinion changes over time and the current political situation is not eternal. Freeways are destructive to the urban fabric, and even freeways that sit on land that would not otherwise be used for anything else, like the West Loop, facilitate driving and contribute to car dependency. KC's freeway network is already overbuilt, and frankly, there is never going to be political will to build the expansive, reliable transit system that people on this forum daydream about (i.e., more than just a few miles of a mixed traffic streetcar) as long as driving is made to feel inexpensive and effortless. KC should absolutely look at reducing traffic capacity and making driving more burdensome, including by ripping out urban freeways that never should have been built in the first place. Obviously that's not going to happen overnight, but it's worth pursuing as a long-term goal. What we stand to reclaim from the West Loop is not the land it sits on but a city built for people, not cars.

AlkaliAxel wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 4:22 pm There's wayyyy too much focus & care about traffic times & jams on this forum.

100%. This forum is ostensibly full of urbanists, but there is so much fretting about traffic (even in this very thread, with the discussion several pages back about closing Walnut). The type of city that many on this forum seem to want -- a densely built up, walkable city with good transit, but also where traffic flows freely -- does not exist. Pick density or pick easy driving, you can't have both.

Maintaining the city grid is key to better walkability. Look what has happened in Westport with superblocks and walkability.

Westport loses walkability because of surface parking more than anything. I'm okay with shutting down Walnut, it will make the walk more pleasant with zero cars and less concrete.

alejandro46 wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 10:15 pm There are some significant choke points in the loop that need addressing prior to capping I670 and removing North Loop because there will be re-routed traffic from existing I-70. KCK will flat out not be OK with the removal without some mitigation done, if at all.

In particular, where I-70 diverts from 4 lanes down to 1 into I670 in the South West corner of loop, and then in Southeast corner where people are trying to cut across 670 to go on I29N and 71S. Look at Page 38 for proposed re-striping of those areas in particular.

https://www.marc.org/Transportation/Spe ... RKING.aspx

But who would even care what KCK thinks about north loop removal…they’re not even in the same state?

Superblocks and the grid can coexist. For instance, Barcelona's superblock program. By all accounts it's been a massive success.

"How Barcelona’s ‘superblocks’ could work in other cities"

https://www.fastcompany.com/90732811/ho ... nd%20noise.

AlkaliAxel wrote: ↑Fri May 20, 2022 11:45 am

alejandro46 wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 10:15 pm There are some significant choke points in the loop that need addressing prior to capping I670 and removing North Loop because there will be re-routed traffic from existing I-70. KCK will flat out not be OK with the removal without some mitigation done, if at all.

In particular, where I-70 diverts from 4 lanes down to 1 into I670 in the South West corner of loop, and then in Southeast corner where people are trying to cut across 670 to go on I29N and 71S. Look at Page 38 for proposed re-striping of those areas in particular.

https://www.marc.org/Transportation/Spe ... RKING.aspx

But who would even care what KCK thinks about north loop removal…they’re not even in the same state?

co-op with KCK is important, it's literally just a made up boundary that separates it from being KCMO. We should act as such. I think KCK will see benefits from readapting the 70 and converting the 670 to become the new 70.. but yeah there will have to be some re working of interstates or you'll just piss people off which still lowers QOL.