Downtown Baseball Stadium

[normalthings]

I am a proponent of a 25-33k seat stadium! I don't think anyone here has said smaller.

[GRID]

I am a proponent of a 25-33k seat stadium! I don't think anyone here has said smaller.

I think 33-35k would be about right. KC averaged almost 34k in 2015 and had several years in the low 30's. In order to hit those numbers, you have to have many nights of 38k to offset the 20k nights. MLB has a LOT of weekday games and needs large weekend crowds to offset weekday crowds which is why you need what seems like excess capacity.

[normalthings]

I am a proponent of a 25-33k seat stadium! I don't think anyone here has said smaller.

I think 34-35k would be about right. KC averaged almost 34k in 2015 and had several years in the low 30's. In order to hit those numbers, you have to have many nights of 38k to offset the 20k nights. MLB has a LOT of weekday games and needs large weekend crowds to offset weekday crowds which is why you need what seems like excess capacity.

My thought process is all around build small but grand and expand as needed.

[GRID]

I am a proponent of a 25-33k seat stadium! I don't think anyone here has said smaller.

I think 34-35k would be about right. KC averaged almost 34k in 2015 and had several years in the low 30's. In order to hit those numbers, you have to have many nights of 38k to offset the 20k nights. MLB has a LOT of weekday games and needs large weekend crowds to offset weekday crowds which is why you need what seems like excess capacity.

My thought process is all around build small but grand and expand as needed.

Yeah, I would be more worried about that. Building a cheap ballpark would suck. Which is why I really don't see anything happening that would not be a downgrade from Kauffman stadium. I have been to games in almost all MLB stadiums and Kauffman is one of the best ballparks in the league despite its location. Most of the new parks are very sterile with too many distractions from the game. Nationals Park is in a cool location, but the stadium has nothing on kauffman. It's exactly like 15 other stadiums.

Camden Yards is amazing. But the O's suck so bad that nobody goes to games anymore. The team has to play well to draw fans. That's the bottom line.

[shinatoo]

Just think, if we had built a shitty doughnut multi use stadium back in the late sixties like everyone else we would have a shiny new downtown ballpark by now. This city has no vision &

(Actually, we probably would have lost the team after Mr. K died).

[AlkaliAxel]

I really think the biggest reason we’re worried about attendance numbers is because the Royals have been so bad. If they’re competitive at al consistently you’ll need atleast 34k for a stadium and probably more. I wouldn’t use the recent losing seasons attendance as a good metric.

Side note- if a downtown stadium increases attendance as projected, and we decrease to 35k seats- it will feel like that stadium is nearly filled up every night, which would be cool.

[Riverite]

I really think the biggest reason we’re worried about attendance numbers is because the Royals have been so bad. If they’re competitive at al consistently you’ll need atleast 34k for a stadium and probably more. I wouldn’t use the recent losing seasons attendance as a good metric.

Side note- if a downtown stadium increases attendance as projected, and we decrease to 35k seats- it will feel like that stadium is nearly filled up every night, which would be cool.

I feel like there is value in having the stadium near full every night and turn people away every once in awhile than have it really empty often. Really empty stadiums just do not have the same dynamism

[AlkaliAxel]

I really think the biggest reason we’re worried about attendance numbers is because the Royals have been so bad. If they’re competitive at al consistently you’ll need atleast 34k for a stadium and probably more. I wouldn’t use the recent losing seasons attendance as a good metric.

Side note- if a downtown stadium increases attendance as projected, and we decrease to 35k seats- it will feel like that stadium is nearly filled up every night, which would be cool.

I feel like there is value in having the stadium near full every night and turn people away every once in awhile than have it really empty often. Really empty stadiums just do not have the same dynamism

That's prob the best argument to a standard person for a downtown stadium, in my opinion.

If the Royals suck and they're at TSC, nobody is gonna come.

If the Royals suck and they're downtown, atleast people will always still come for the experience.

In other words, right now if you're going to a Royals game you're mostly only coming strictly for baseball. There isn't much else to do at the K than literally just watch the game. Downtown would change that.

[normalthings]

I really think the biggest reason we’re worried about attendance numbers is because the Royals have been so bad. If they’re competitive at al consistently you’ll need atleast 34k for a stadium and probably more. I wouldn’t use the recent losing seasons attendance as a good metric.

Side note- if a downtown stadium increases attendance as projected, and we decrease to 35k seats- it will feel like that stadium is nearly filled up every night, which would be cool.

I feel like there is value in having the stadium near full every night and turn people away every once in awhile than have it really empty often. Really empty stadiums just do not have the same dynamism

Theoretically, Sporting KC is turning people away every single game. Every game feels electric. Seen as one of the best in all of soccer. Experience passes Royals by 1,000 miles.

A 27,500 seat baseball stadium would only turn people away 5-10 of 80 games a year.

[TrolliKC]

[/quote]

Theoretically, Sporting KC is turning people away every single game. Every game feels electric. Seen as one of the best in all of soccer. Experience passes Royals by 1,000 miles.

A 27,500 seat baseball stadium would only turn people away 5-10 of 80 games a year.
[/quote]

Sell Outs have a spill over effect as well. If every weekend sporting game is sold out or at max resale value, single game ticket purchasers are more likely to buy Wed night games then

[AlkaliAxel]

I'll just put this idea to bed for good, there is absolutely no way the Royals or any MLB team would ever build a stadium as small as 27,500. It is extremely unlikely they'd ever build anything under 35k either.

[aknowledgeableperson]

If KC wants to have the only minor league park in MLB, then it's probably not a MLB market anymore. New stadiums in MLB are already corrected for modern baseball. That's why they are 35k now instead of 45-60k.

I would still love to see a new downtown ballpark, but I don't see how KC pulls it off. I just don't. You will never ever get a KCMO citywide or a Jackson countywide vote to abandon Kauffman stadium. No way in hell. It would lose by at least 60%. The state is not going to help and the KC market is too small for a ton of private money.

Agreed.
A small stadium would be a kiss of death for the Royals. I know it is a way to save money in construction costs but in the long run it would be more expensive when expanded. I can just imagine the voters would have a heyday when asked for more money to enlarge the stadium.
And I don't see KC voters approving a tax to fund a downtown stadium. South KC would be a big no, the area east of Raytown would be a big no, and I would imagine a wide area of Clay County would be a big no.
And still nobody has identified a funding source that isn't a tax that could generate enough funds to pay off the debt to build. Tax abatement, what tax abatement if the stadium is owned by the City? TIF or Super TIF couldn't generate the necessary funds.
Identify a solid source of funding then one can seriously talk about a downtown stadium.

[normalthings]

I don't think the stadium will be owned by the city. Tax revenues from a surrounding redevelopment district will pay for the stadium debt issuance.

We clearly do not sell enough seats reguarly to really need a 35,000 seat stadium. Not as bad as Tampa Bay or Miami but we are one of the worst in attendence.

[AlkaliAxel]

I don't think the stadium will be owned by the city. Tax revenues from a surrounding redevelopment district will pay for the stadium debt issuance.

We clearly do not sell enough seats reguarly to really need a 35,000 seat stadium. Not as bad as Tampa Bay or Miami but we are one of the worst in attendence.

That's because currently the team sucks. Don't judge off that recent metric.When they're good again, or even get consistently good, they'll easily need 35k a night minimum. And I agree with GRID, if you expect the absolute best is only 27k a night for eternity then the team is getting moved.

[normalthings]

I don't think the stadium will be owned by the city. Tax revenues from a surrounding redevelopment district will pay for the stadium debt issuance.

We clearly do not sell enough seats reguarly to really need a 35,000 seat stadium. Not as bad as Tampa Bay or Miami but we are one of the worst in attendence.

That's because currently the team sucks. Don't judge off that recent metric.When they're good again, or even get consistently good, they'll easily need 35k a night minimum. And I agree with GRID, if you expect the absolute best is only 27k a night for eternity then the team is getting moved.

Team was sold at a discount to a local group so that it wouldn't move. Our attendance is so poor I am not confident Nashville,etc wouldn't have bought it otherwise. Really no guarantee we will considently be good at any point. There are 2 seasons in 30 years with 30,000+ average and only 3 that approach it.

[AlkaliAxel]

They’re just about to bring up a massive wave of prospects (some are already up). We’re at the very tail end of their losing season streak right now. That’s why I wouldn’t judge off recent history of the Royals.

Essentially, we don’t deserve to have a franchise if we had a stadium that small. Yes, the Rays get even less attendance and they’re constantly talked about being moved to Montreal. Downtown baseball is going to increase attendance anyway.

I think also with MLB poised to expand playoffs to 14 teams this off-season it makes it alot better for fans to care throughout the season, more incentive.

[WoodDraw]

Make everyone make the playoffs so we’re all good!

-how us owners react to being shit

[WoodDraw]

Oh and build us newer stadiums

[phuqueue]

I'm not sure I understand the logic behind "build as if the team will never be able to draw." If the team can never draw, it will eventually get moved, if not by this ownership than by the next, in which case we shouldn't build anything at all. Building a tiny stadium only creates a new reason the team can't draw, a physical lack of space to accommodate more spectators even when they want to come, thus ensuring that the team will never draw in a tidy little self-fulfilling prophecy. I'm still against the downtown stadium for all the reasons we've already covered ad nauseam, but man, if you are going to do it anyway, at least do it right.

[GRID]

I'm not sure I understand the logic behind "build as if the team will never be able to draw." If the team can never draw, it will eventually get moved, if not by this ownership than by the next, in which case we shouldn't build anything at all. Building a tiny stadium only creates a new reason the team can't draw, a physical lack of space to accommodate more spectators even when they want to come, thus ensuring that the team will never draw in a tidy little self-fulfilling prophecy. I'm still against the downtown stadium for all the reasons we've already covered ad nauseam, but man, if you are going to do it anyway, at least do it right.

Exactly.

I don't get why everything in KC has to be done doing the "lite" version. I guarantee if a new stadium gets built in KC, it will already be ultra value engineered compared to most new stadiums or even existing Kauffman Stadium. And the surrounding infrastructure will not be upgraded the way it should be to accommodate a new stadium and clean up the surrounding area. So to build a minor league sized stadium on top of that would be totally stupid. Just keep Kauffman (even without renovating it).

And a downtown stadium will not increase attendance. You might see a bump for a year or two, but then if the team still sucks, attendance would actually likely trend lower than it is now. You have to remember that 90% of the fan base for the royals is suburban/rural and that won't change with a downtown stadium. That's not just KC, that's just demographics. Most people in metro areas live in the suburbs. All you have to do is look at Baltimore, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Minneapolis etc. Attendance is directly associated with the team's performance and has almost nothing to do with the location of the stadium.

Having said that, KC will never draw as well as 80% of the other markets. They drew well in 2015 with about 34k but that was with one of the best teams in the history of the franchise. Even the year after winning the WS and while the team was still competitive and still having its star players, attendance dropped. Something that almost never happens the year after winning a championship. It only took 3 years after winning the world series for all the new fans to disappear again in KC. KC is a good baseball town, it has very high tv ratings etc, but not enough people go to actual games.

So KC can get by with one of the smaller stadiums, but it should still be MLB caliber.

KC has to have a 35k seat stadium for all the weekend 30k crowds to offset the weekday crowds. If KC can't support a 35k seat stadium. Then it's time to let go the Royals go. Charlotte, Nashville, Portland, Austin etc are going to be a major threat to KC in the coming decades for KC to try be a minor league market in a major league where much larger cities are going to want a team.