OFFICIAL - IRS HQ construction

[Highlander]

A six block IRS complex? Sounds like a federal prison to me. Maybe they could save some money by auditing people and incarcerating them at the same site.

I think it will be about as welcoming as a prison. Not that an IRS facility would be a big attraction anyway but at least some visible activity from the street would be nice.

At least it will generate lots of property taxes, economic activity taxes, etc right?

Funny you draw the comparison to a prison. I think the renderings look all too much like a squat version of the Jackson County jail in downtown. Particularly, what appear to be the little slots for windows. Nonetheless, the influx of 6000 people into the Union Station area cannot be a bad thing and the complex is enough out of the way that it's not going to kill the neighborhood by its austere appearance.

[kevink]

Um, no. . . the IRS building is a private office building (federal, yes, but still not open to the public) in an area with no foot traffic. There is no ground level retail or office space where patrons walk in through the front door, etc. etc. That is a little different than downtown.

Slapping a street frontage onto a building that has no use for one will not make people and activity magically appear on the street.

That is a very myopic viewpoint. The Crossroads had no foot traffic a few years ago-perhaps we should have sacrificed it to a big office complex. I would hope we'd have a more dynamic vision for our undeveloped lands downtown (or anywhere for that matter) than a frickin pseudo-prison.

Look, the IRS workers will have a big parking garage underneath the building, and at Union Station. They will drive in off I-35, drive right into the parking, and go directly into the facility. They have 30 minutes for lunch, and have their own food court. They will not be hanging out in PVP, and will not be walking along Pershing Road.

I guarantee you right now, that this facility will not generate a single new street-level business, nor will it help Union Station. If it had been built as a 10-15 story building occupying one block, we could have still had 5 city blocks available for high-density residential, and some retail.

The best we can hope for is that a few IRS employees will find it easier to relocate their home into the city, but the easy access off I-35 will probably make them reluctant.

I hate to take a piss, but this project is a disaster.

[KCPowercat]

out of all those workers, nobody is going to grab food at Union Station or shop at Crown Center?

[kevink]

out of all those workers, nobody is going to grab food at Union Station or shop at Crown Center?

a few might, but consider the experience- walking underground quite a long distance (passing their own food court options). And to buy what? What options are there actually at US? And by the time they walk all the way there and back, the 1/2 hour lunch is shot. That's not likely to engender many repeat customers.

Crown Center??? Please----

Also, about 1/2 those workers are seasonal, and make $10/hour.

[Long]

That is a very myopic viewpoint. The Crossroads had no foot traffic a few years ago-perhaps we should have sacrificed it to a big office complex. I would hope we'd have a more dynamic vision for our undeveloped lands downtown (or anywhere for that matter) than a frickin pseudo-prison.

Look, the IRS workers will have a big parking garage underneath the building, and at Union Station. They will drive in off I-35, drive right into the parking, and go directly into the facility. They have 30 minutes for lunch, and have their own food court. They will not be hanging out in PVP, and will not be walking along Pershing Road.

I guarantee you right now, that this facility will not generate a single new street-level business, nor will it help Union Station. If it had been built as a 10-15 story building occupying one block, we could have still had 5 city blocks available for high-density residential, and some retail.

The best we can hope for is that a few IRS employees will find it easier to relocate their home into the city, but the easy access off I-35 will probably make them reluctant.

I hate to take a piss, but this project is a disaster.

You keep comparing apples to oranges. . . like building this IRS building on this particular site is the equivalent of bulldozing the entire Crossroads district or everything inside the loop, which is an absurd analogy at best. Last time I checked, that site contained a few random buildings scattered across a parcel of land in the middle of nowhere.

I know some people like to talk about downtown as being everything from the river to 31st or 39th or whatever, but that doesn't mean that the conditions for everything inside that range are equal. The Crown Center-Union Station-Liberty Memorial complex is NOTHING like the loop or the Crossroads. Crown Center and Union Station have already established a very "suburban" context. Union Station is surrounded by parking and serviced by a skywalk to Crown Center, and Crown Center has what, one entrance off the street? Even if the IRS did have a front door, walking to these two places would still suck.

I suppose we could have turned away the IRS in favor of the next developer on the list that wanted that site . . . .

[kevink]

You keep comparing apples to oranges. . . like building this IRS building on this particular site is the equivalent of bulldozing the entire Crossroads district or everything inside the loop, which is an absurd analogy at best. Last time I checked, that site contained a few random buildings scattered across a parcel of land in the middle of nowhere.

What you describe is *exactly* how much of the Crossroads could have been described a few years ago. In fact, on many blocks you could *still* describe it that way - take a real look.

I know some people like to talk about downtown as being everything from the river to 31st or 39th or whatever, but that doesn't mean that the conditions for everything inside that range are equal. The Crown Center-Union Station-Liberty Memorial complex is NOTHING like the loop or the Crossroads. Crown Center and Union Station have already established a very "suburban" context. Union Station is surrounded by parking and serviced by a skywalk to Crown Center, and Crown Center has what, one entrance off the street? Even if the IRS did have a front door, walking to these two places would still suck.

I suppose we could have turned away the IRS in favor of the next developer on the list that wanted that site . . . .

So your attitude is, we've made some mistakes by suburbanizing parts of the city, so it's ok to just continue?? Hell, why not just build some strip malls and McMansions then?

Just because the context now is poor does not mean that we should doom it to decades more of the same (or worse). A city or neighborhood can overcome its context and improve. Our riverfront is far more cutoff from downtown or its surroundings than this site, and yet we aspire for that to be great. Instead of just writing it off, why don't we ask what we could do to the Crown Center area to make it more urban?

6 city blocks is large enough to sustain and generate a tremendous amount of urban activity. I have no doubt that with the current housing boom, another developer or developers would have been very interested in that site very quickly.

But the bottom line is, this design didn't need to be this way. The same exact functions could have been accomplished with far less damage to the city, if it were vertical instead of horizontal. But the IRS & GSA (along with their architects) have conceived a one-size-fits-all suburban solution for their new prototype, and we are stuck with it.

[staubio]

I see both sides of this, and I agree that the complex isn't a great boon to downtown. However, I see it is a positive whenever we can infill gaping holes in downtown. That leaves less open space for future development. Demand isn't generated just because the space is there. If the demand for residential continues and the space dwindles, that means we'll just have to build with more density. Not every neighborhood can be hot. The complex area is surrounded by a bluff, a freeway, a pit and a post office. Not a great connected site anyway.

[Long]

I will certainly agree that the design of the building could be better, and that in a perfect world there would be a better tenant.

But. . .

There are so many surface lots and abandoned buildings between downtown and Crown Center, and quite a bit of undeveloped land adjacent to Crown Center, that I'm not going to get too worked up over the land being kidnapped and violated by the IRS.

I would love to see the space between Liberty Memorial and Union Station developed into a more urban solution. Push the street (is it Pershing Road?) right up against the front door of Union Station, and develop a plaza to fill in between the new street and where the LM lawn starts, possibly incorporating the big round fountain and parking below. Then develop a streetscape with street-level retail connecting Union Station with Crown Center, and ditch "The Link."

This is the level of development that is going to need to happen before I give two rips about what happens on the IRS site. And when that does happen, just punch a hole in the front of the IRS building and stick a door in it.

The spaces between downtown and Crown Center should be higher on the list for redevelopment than the wasteland between the bluff, the pit, and the freeway.

[kevink]

This is the level of development that is going to need to happen before I give two rips about what happens on the IRS site. And when that does happen, just punch a hole in the front of the IRS building and stick a door in it.

The spaces between downtown and Crown Center should be higher on the list for redevelopment than the wasteland between the bluff, the pit, and the freeway.

I remain amazed at your willingness to sacrifice parts of the URBAN area for crap. Remember - even bad buildings stick with us for at least a couple generations, and this project will serve to deaden an entire area for at least that time.

As to the notion that this is an "undesirable" site: it is 6 city blocks large, which in this particular case is approximately 30 acres!; that, on its own, is enough to generate a lively place. Virtually the entirety of Westport would fit on this site, and at least 2/3 of the Plaza would fit. That's not to say it *would* be the Plaza or Westport, but it's to give an idea of scale. 30 acres at say, 30 units/acre (the density of Bridgeworks lofts) gives around 900 units, plus some street-level retail. Go up to 50/acre (Western Auto lofts) and it goes to 1,500 units. Imagine what happens if you go to 70, 80 or 100/acre.

In addition - it's adjacent to PVP, which would be a highly desirable amenity to urban dwellers living in a high density environment. The intersection of 25th/West Pennway is a very easy and short walk to Southwest Boulevard - a lively restaurant row. Union Station is across the street. It borders Broadway - a major north-south link in the City, and is close to a second link - Main Street. The west side of Broadway is lined with businesses and buildings, effectively blocking the ugliness of the freeway. The north side of Pershing has buildings, including one being renovated for lofts - the pit is behind it.

This, to my mind, is the core of the problem we face in KC - way too willing to accept any activity as good activity; and, a corresponding accepting of mediocrity (or far worse in this case) in urban design.

A city does not just "happen". Great places are made on purpose, with the efforts of great designers and a populace that doesn't let them slack off. We've whiffed on this one - it will take much more than "punching" a door in to make it work in the future - it will take a whole mess of dynamite.

[ignatius]

This, to my mind, is the core of the problem we face in KC - way too willing to accept any activity as good activity; and, a corresponding accepting of mediocrity (or far worse in this case) in urban design.

I completely agree. It used to be that city leaders were desperate for any kind of investment in the core. Now that there is desire to build/rehab the city, we need to raise the bar and say no if it does not aid the urban fabric in the long run. That is, developments at a pedestrian scale, inviting to people first, not cars first.

Midtown Marketplace was an example of this desperation. Now that the momentum is happening, we should never be satifisfied with such development format.

It's not that difficult to insist going back to the drawing board and think about people scale, not car scale.

[Long]

Um. . . "that wasted lawn in front of Liberty Memorial?" That wasted lawn on both the north and south are part of the design of the memorial.

I want to see the city develop in a truly urban way just as much as anyone, but I think some of you people would suggest Liberty Memorial would be better if it had mixed-use development running right up to the front door.

I just drove past the IRS site. It is literally a pit. Sure, J.C. Nichols bought up a flood plain, dug a ditch and paved it in concrete, and today we have the plaza. . . but there are so many more deserving sites downtown that are worthy of urban development before the IRS ravine. In fact, if someone had built the next Plaza or Westport in this landfill instead of, say, on Grand between 16th and 20th, I would be more bent out of shape than the people that hate the Nelson expansion. Just let this one go already. . . it isn't worth the effort.

As I said already, yes, the building could be better designed. But I bet that if they had built a tower, you'd end up with one block with a tower on it (that no one would walk to or from) and five empty blocks.

[Long]

I remain amazed at your willingness to sacrifice parts of the URBAN area for crap. Remember - even bad buildings stick with us for at least a couple generations, and this project will serve to deaden an entire area for at least that time.

Yes and no. If this were the last site available in the city to develop, I would be up in arms. If the rest of the area between the river and Crown Center are developed and occupied within the lifespan of this building, I will admit I was wrong in not caring.

As to the notion that this is an "undesirable" site: it is 6 city blocks large, which in this particular case is approximately 30 acres!; that, on its own, is enough to generate a lively place. Virtually the entirety of Westport would fit on this site, and at least 2/3 of the Plaza would fit. That's not to say it *would* be the Plaza or Westport, but it's to give an idea of scale. 30 acres at say, 30 units/acre (the density of Bridgeworks lofts) gives around 900 units, plus some street-level retail. Go up to 50/acre (Western Auto lofts) and it goes to 1,500 units. Imagine what happens if you go to 70, 80 or 100/acre.

Yes it is a large area. But so is the "ballpark site" on the northwest corner of the loop, the land east of Ilus Davis plaza, large portions of Walnut, Grand, Oak, Locust, etc. between 16th and 20th streets, all of which are more suited to development.

In addition - it's adjacent to PVP, which would be a highly desirable amenity to urban dwellers living in a high density environment. The intersection of 25th/West Pennway is a very easy and short walk to Southwest Boulevard - a lively restaurant row. Union Station is across the street. It borders Broadway - a major north-south link in the City, and is close to a second link - Main Street. The west side of Broadway is lined with businesses and buildings, effectively blocking the ugliness of the freeway. The north side of Pershing has buildings, including one being renovated for lofts - the pit is behind it.

I will give you a MAYBE on the desirability of PVP. Most of that walk from the site to SW Blvd is either under freeway bridges or alongside the ground sloping up to the freeway. Union Station, ok, one point. It is close to busy streets, eh, ok. If memory serves, those business on the west side of Broadway are very low buildings, and the freeway is elevated quite a bit-- if not immediately adjacent to IRS, then it is to the northwest.

This, to my mind, is the core of the problem we face in KC - way too willing to accept any activity as good activity; and, a corresponding accepting of mediocrity (or far worse in this case) in urban design.

Yes the building is ugly. But the site is worse.

A city does not just "happen". Great places are made on purpose, with the efforts of great designers and a populace that doesn't let them slack off. We've whiffed on this one - it will take much more than "punching" a door in to make it work in the future - it will take a whole mess of dynamite.

The punching in a door reference was a joke, mostly because of my lack of vision in seeing how great this site could be. You're right-- it is too bad this has to be an ugly building, it is something more appropriate for the Bannister complex. But at the same time, I think this city has bigger fish to fry. I honestly believe the only choices with this site are (a) what we're getting (b) what was there before (c) 30 acres of farmland. I think the effort required to transform it into something really viable would be so much more useful someplace else.

I know if I were looking for a place to live, and I could choose between this site and one of the locations I mentioned above, the IRS site would be at the bottom of the list. Unless I got a space in Anne's Lofts, because it is a cool building, but certainly not because of its location, unless its location made it cost less.

[Long]

Um. . . "that wasted lawn in front of Liberty Memorial?" That wasted lawn on both the north and south are part of the design of the memorial.

Well Mr. obvious, besides the gratuitous sarcasm, what's your point? Everyone knows the grassy hill was part of the orig design, so? It's still a waste. The design is poor and unusable. Put something on it that will draw people to the Memorial, rather than have a ubiquitous, infinite (to a pedestrian) grassy slope that only isolates the memorial. Even a grand staircase with permanent art and history exhibits along the way up would be better. But I think the best option is to put a baseball stadium there. The memorial could be right behind home plate with center field facing the skyline. Everybody wins, especially LM and US because they will be active ansd crowded again.

The path from Pershing to LM is infinite-- that is part of the experience. It is a cool experience. I suggest you try it. If you already have, I don't know what to tell you. It doesn't isolate the memorial-- it makes it more monumental. A lot of its majesty comes from it being this thing perched way up on the hill. What would isolate it is hiding it behind a baseball stadium. Part of the experience of LM is seeing it from the bottom of the hill, then the physical exertion required to hike up the steps and follow the sidewalk across the lawn. If someone doesn't want to walk up that lawn because they're too lazy to get off their a**, it is their loss. Maybe we should build another segment of "The Link." This one could just be a glass tube that stays at ground level, housing an escalator that hauls you up the hill.

[Gladstoner]

We still haven't seen what this giant complex will look like. All they've shown was that small rendering of the facade adjacent to Pershing.

Also, what happens to the complex if we ever go to a flat or national sales tax? Oh, to answer my own question, the place will probably crumble to dust and blow away with the wind before that happens.

[dangerboy]

Also, what happens to the complex if we ever go to a flat or national sales tax? Oh, to answer my own question, the place will probably crumble to dust and blow away with the wind before that happens.

That won't get rid of the need for an agency to collect the tax...

[Long]

We still haven't seen what this giant complex will look like. All they've shown was that small rendering of the facade adjacent to Pershing.

Also, what happens to the complex if we ever go to a flat or national sales tax? Oh, to answer my own question, the place will probably crumble to dust and blow away with the wind before that happens.

It will be converted to residential.

[Gladstoner]

We still haven't seen what this giant complex will look like. All they've shown was that small rendering of the facade adjacent to Pershing.

Also, what happens to the complex if we ever go to a flat or national sales tax? Oh, to answer my own question, the place will probably crumble to dust and blow away with the wind before that happens.

It will be converted to residential.

Maximum security.

[staubio]

The path from Pershing to LM is infinite-- that is part of the experience. It is a cool experience. I suggest you try it. If you already have, I don't know what to tell you. It doesn't isolate the memorial-- it makes it more monumental. A lot of its majesty comes from it being this thing perched way up on the hill. What would isolate it is hiding it behind a baseball stadium. Part of the experience of LM is seeing it from the bottom of the hill, then the physical exertion required to hike up the steps and follow the sidewalk across the lawn. If someone doesn't want to walk up that lawn because they're too lazy to get off their a**, it is their loss. Maybe we should build another segment of "The Link." This one could just be a glass tube that stays at ground level, housing an escalator that hauls you up the hill.

Right on. Part of the majesty of Liberty Memorial is that it has such a dramatically sloping foreground that draws your eyes up. This is part of the design and should stay. I wouldn't be opposed to adding more features on the way up, such as a more distinguished staircase with some exhibits on the way up, but the space should definately NOT have something just plopped into it.

Run Pershing as one surface south of the fountain, ditch some of the parking in front of Union Station, build a pedestrian mall to the fountain and then a bridge over Pershing to start up toward the monument. That area is horribly disconnected.

[Long]

On the other hand, if you could board a ski lift at Union Station and be hoisted from there, up over Pershing and the lawn to the main observation deck at LM, that could be cool.

[tat2kc]

The only parking really needed in the front of Union Station is for handicapped parking, and bus/car drop off. Pretty much everything else can go. The North Lawn does need to be somewhat reconfigued, with a larger level area for concerts and events, and a beautful stairway up to the memorial.