OFFICIAL - Loews Convention Hotel (formerly Hyatt)

[KC-wildcat]

The only problem with that approach is: That is what KCMO has been doing with regards to its convention facilities for over 20 years.  With that approach we take one step forward but two steps back.

I don't see how building a 1000 room convention hotel is taking two steps backward.  Rather, I see it as taking one huge step forward.  And, if the hotel is planned properly in conjunction with the P&L building, perhaps 7-10k in exhibit space could be incorporated.  

[aknowledgeableperson]

I bet you don't even know what a Corporate (only) Convention is...let alone how large or small one can be...

Well.  Now maybe some of the wording has changed over the years
You can have a corporate gathering that is just the employees of the company, much like the Walmart get-together, which KC just lost.
You can also have a corporate gathering that includes employees of many companies but are in a specialized field, much like the Risk and Insurance Management Society.
You can have a professional gathering, which includes members of a group, much like the American Academy of Family Physicians.
There are some small corporate gatherings that can be contained within a hotel complex, much like the facilities at Crown Center or downtown at the Marriott.
And their are many other catagories of events that can be listed.

With regards to square footage usage it is hard to say how the size of the group relates to the footage being used.
How much of the area is used for exhibits, in other words are there lots of exhibits, are the exhibits large, small, or what.  How much of the area is used for general sessions, in other words how many people will be seated, what size of stage, etc.  Will any of the area be used for catered functions, breakfast, lunch, awards dinner, and so on.  Does the event open with one general session and then the area converted to meal functions or vice-versa.

In other words you can't say that a group of 2,000 will use this amount of square footage and a group of 6,000 will use that amount of square footage.

To go exclusively after only one segment of the convention industry, such as your "Large Corporate Conventions" would be suicide.  And, unless things have changed over the years, the CVB, the CC marketing staff, and even the local hotels pursue any type of event that is out there.  It is very common within the convention industry to know what conventions are out there, what size they are, where are they going, and so on.


So I will throw it back at you, kull, define what is meant by "Large, corporate convention"?

I don't see how building a 1000 room convention hotel is taking two steps backward

I did not say that, by itself, building a convention hotel is two steps back.  But without adding more space to the Convention Center we really haven't improved our situation that much compared to other cities.  It has been 20 years since we started to add exhibit space to our facilities.  During that time other cities have added space to their facilities and so now we are behind the pack with regards to floor space.  Even now other cities are currently adding floor space or are studying the issue.

So, yes, a hotel helps but just a hotel would not have kept Walmart here, Skills here, nor brought back FFA.  These are events that people complain about losing.  A lack of space also prevents other large conventions from coming here.  A lack of space also prevents the facility from hosting two medium sized conventions at the same time, or because of conflicting move-in and move-out dates prevents one event from closely following another.

[MidtownCat]

Right, akp, the lack of hotel rooms wasn't why those conventions left, it was just one of the primary reasons they gave.

The solution to the problem:  Do absolutely nothing.

[im2kull]

The solution to the problem:  Do absolutely nothing.

Damnit...Where'd Funk leave that "EASY" button at!?!?!!

[DaveKCMO]

Right, akp, the lack of hotel room wasn't why those conventions left, it was just the reason they gave.

The solution to the problem:  Do absolutely nothing.

...or let the beloved market solve the problem.

[KC-wildcat]

I did not say that, by itself, building a convention hotel is two steps back.  But without adding more space to the Convention Center we really haven't improved our situation that much compared to other cities.  It has been 20 years since we started to add exhibit space to our facilities.  During that time other cities have added space to their facilities and so now we are behind the pack with regards to floor space.  Even now other cities are currently adding floor space or are studying the issue.

I proposed a two step initiative.  First, build the hotel and incorporate a bit of exhibit space within its footprint.  Second, address additional exhibit space. 

In response, you stated "With that approach we take one step forward but two steps back."

So, uh, what?

[LenexatoKCMO]

I proposed a two step initiative.  First, build the hotel and incorporate a bit of exhibit space within its footprint.  Second, address additional exhibit space. 

In response, you stated "With that approach we take one step forward but two steps back."

So, uh, what?

Don't fall for it.  AKP is all about KC taking zero steps forward.  Thus his 'build everything we could ever need or nothing at all' red herring stance. 

[MidtownCat]

I propose we do nothing.  And then complain about doing nothing.

Sincerely, AKP

[im2kull]

I propose we do nothing.  And then complain about doing nothing.

Sincerely, AKP

[mean]

Why does it matter?  The fact is that taxpayers subsidized P&L and for the P&L (and CBD as a whole) to reach its full potential, a healthy convention slate is necessary.   

Certainly it could help a great deal, if significant conventions relocated to KC. No argument there. I'm just saying, how likely is it that significant enough convention business will surface to offset the investment in the hotel? That's something that seems to be assumed, and every study I've seen that wasn't sponsored by someone with a vested interest in seeing something built tends to conclude that it isn't really worth it. Of course CVBs will be in favor of such investment, and of course convention planners will--whether they intend to relocate, having better facilities to choose from gives them leverage in negotiating with host cities.

I'm not prepared to say either way with any degree of certainty, and if we could secure commitments from convention planners on the assumption that we build said hotel, then it would definitely be something to take very seriously. I am basing my skepticism on the fact that such investments are generally deemed poor ways to spend public money by those not directly benefiting from it. Doesn't mean they're necessarily right, but it should give pause.

Yeah...just correcting your false statement about local tourism and voicing concern over the reductionist perspective when examining downtown investments. Big cities invest...#30 cities sit back and debate a hotel for 20+ years.

Fair enough, but it becomes a sort of chicken-and-egg argument. Are we a #30 city because we sit back and debate instead of just doing it, or do we sit back and debate instead of just doing it because we're a #30 city?

The 1000 hotels rooms will easily be added to the region over the next few years so I don't understand why we wouldn't want them in a central location with good infrastructure, people spending money downtown instead of leaving the rooms to Olathe and Lenexa. But that game is the story of Kansas City (wait around, let the city detoriate while we argue and let the suburbs grow). If Olathe can build a convetion hotel...I would hope KCMO could too.

Sure, but the rooms you speak of would presumably be added regardless, making the necessity of securing actual convention business to fill the downtown rooms even more critical, since those aren't the kinds of rooms that most people are going to seek out while driving through to somewhere else, or when doing business in Corporate Woods.

Why are you worrying about this project?

Wouldn't say I'm particularly worried about it either way. It will happen or it won't. I'm just trying to determine whether the support being expressed here is rational; whether "build it and they will come" (or come back) is likely to work. Obviously I'm not convinced, although I wouldn't mind if I were.

[trailerkid]

i don't take development/planning advice from people that thought mayor squitiro (+funk) would also be a good decision for the city.

kansas city needs to regain its pride.

[mean]

Resorting to ad hominem and ad populum already? I guess you must clearly have the better argument.

[aknowledgeableperson]

Right, akp, the lack of hotel rooms wasn't why those conventions left, it was just one of the primary reasons they gave.

The solution to the problem:  Do absolutely nothing.

For someone associated with the convention business for over 17 years I don't think the city should do nothing, but it needs to do the right thing.  There is much of this city that depends on the convention, tradeshow, public show business that not doing the right thing puts that business in danger.  What I would be against is trying to fix the problem with a half-assed solution.  Many on this spot who were/are critical of the expense the city went through to "modernize" Kemper Arena in the 90's instead of building a new arena.  And that is how I feel about just building a hotel - it does not solve the overall problem facing the city.  And since just building a hotel does not solve the overall problem facing the city why build only that.  Just building a hotel, and especially how it is financed, does not improve the city's situation enough to warrant the investment, the roi just is not enough considering the risk.

Many here, I guess, doing something is better than doing nothing.  But there is a danger in just doing something.  There is a major risk that "just a hotel" will not be enough to grow the city's convention business to justify the cost.  If the hotel does not grow the convention business a worthwhile amount then the city is left with just shuffling the deck and leaving the current hotels in a position less desirable than now.

If the city is to do something then in this instance it needs to dream big.  Ask for the big bucks from its citizens.  Do it right.  Don't wait for another 10 to 15 years to expand the exhibit floor and add other facilities to the convention center.  If we wait we fall further down the food chain as it relates to the convention business.  And that is why just building a hotel is a step forward but not adding space to the CC is taking two steps back.

First, build the hotel and incorporate a bit of exhibit space within its footprint

Conventions want exhibit space that is contiguous, not disjointed.  How would you like to be an exhibitor at a convention that has exhibit space blocks away from the main floor?

[im2kull]

Conventions want exhibit space that is contiguous, not disjointed.  How would you like to be an exhibitor at a convention that has exhibit space blocks away from the main floor?

Then you already know that Bartle Hall currently has more contiguous, column-free, exhibit space than any other building in North America?  Who says additional space would be blocks away?  A future expansion could take any form, as you should very well know.  What about meeting rooms?  Sure Wal-Mart and FFA aren't crying for more meeting rooms, but EVERY real corporate event is citing that as one of their main reasons for skipping town.  Would a convention hotel by itself, in its own nature Not offer more meeting rooms than any planned expansion of exhibit space within, or outside of, Bartle Hall?

Lets put it this way:
If we want more corporate type events to come to town, more money-spending people (21+) DT, more people mingling @ P&L, more Tourist dollars being spent DT, and more Hotel Rooms bookings DT & in the KC Area (Thus more Tax $$$$'s for the city)....Then we Need a Convention Hotel before we Need more exhibit space.  Period.

[trailerkid]

Resorting to ad hominem and ad populum already? I guess you must clearly have the better argument.

there clearly are drawbacks and potential risks to the investment. Debating them over and over for 20+ years is clearly the kc thing to do. You're right about everything...leave the fucker vacant surface lot which we know we can do right. 

There are definite credibility issues on this site. It's transparent who is on here to bullshit (you, me, akp) and who has something to bring to the table (grid, davekcmo, fang). I'm just not prepared to take planning advice from someone pimping funkhouser as a development strategist for the city-- no offense.

[aknowledgeableperson]

Then you already know that Bartle Hall currently has more contiguous, column-free, exhibit space than any other building in North America?  Who says additional space would be blocks away?  

So who cares about "column-free" space when you need 400,000 or more sq ft and that "column-free" space is only 388,000 sq ft (Walmart, Skills, and FFA evidently didn't care, and in the 90's ICSC and the Fire Chiefs).  It is a nice sales pitch but only works for groups that need space that fits within what is already there.

And if you build the additional exhibit space at the hotel that is blocks away that is where it will be. Which is what someone proposed

First, build the hotel and incorporate a bit of exhibit space within its footprint

.

[KC-wildcat]

And if you build the additional exhibit space at the hotel that is blocks away that is where it will be. Which is what someone proposed .

The proposed convention hotel would literally be one "sky-walk" away from Bartle.  One block from the rest of the exhibit space.  And, when it comes to total exhibit space, it is my understanding that many cities include their arenas or stadiums.  I believe Indy includes the RCA dome and Louisville includes Freedom Hall.  And these are several blocks away from other exhibit space. 

I guess I'm not sure how much emphasis to put on contiguous space v. total space.  Bottom line, the convention hotel + built in exhibit space will be a hallway away from the rest of the space. 

[im2kull]

So who cares about "column-free" space when you need 400,000 or more sq ft and that "column-free" space is only 388,000 sq ft (Walmart, Skills, and FFA evidently didn't care, and in the 90's ICSC and the Fire Chiefs).  It is a nice sales pitch but only works for groups that need space that fits within what is already there.

And if you build the additional exhibit space at the hotel that is blocks away that is where it will be. Which is what someone proposed .

You make Zero sense...
(Although I doubt that's news to anyone...)

You talk about the detrimental effect of having exhibit space located "Blocks" away, while pimping the exhibit space figures of every other American city...completely ignoring the fact that Kansas City has the largest amount of Contiguous & might we add "Column Free" exhibit space of ANY city in North America!!  Its no marketing gimmick.  EVERY other city has less contguous space than Kansas City, and more remotely located space...so why bother arguing about how incredibly far (1 block) a convention hotel with additional space could be if built Downtown?  Its a completely irrelevant and mute point, as it would be no further away than what any other city has.  Hell, going by their standards we should be including Kemper Arena and the Overland Park Convention Center in our figures.   

Besides, a future Bartle Hall Expansion would be attached to the current structure anyways.  Sure a flagship convention hotel could add additional space, a mere 1 block away, but that doesn't mean the city won't expand Bartle Hall again.  I'd like to see a study not done by some complete imbecile proving that a Convention hotel isn't one of downtown KC's biggest needs at the moment.

[KCMax]

Push for KC convention hotel moves ahead

Kansas City councilwoman Cindy Circo and businessman Bill George will co-chair a newly established steeting committee exploring a new Downtown convention hotel...

Indeed, costs? Other recent convention hotels have ranged as high as $500 million.

How much will the city have to share in those costs?

Can it be done without jeopardizing the city's general fund?...

Ford said he'd like to see a new hotel in time for a Major League Baseball All-Star game in Kansas City, hopefully in July 2012.

[aknowledgeableperson]

The proposed convention hotel would literally be one "sky-walk" away from Bartle.  One block from the rest of the exhibit space.  And, when it comes to total exhibit space, it is my understanding that many cities include their arenas or stadiums.  I believe Indy includes the RCA dome and Louisville includes Freedom Hall.  And these are several blocks away from other exhibit space. 

I guess I'm not sure how much emphasis to put on contiguous space v. total space.  Bottom line, the convention hotel + built in exhibit space will be a hallway away from the rest of the space. 

Any exhibit space that would be in a hotel will not part of the exhibit hall space of Bartle and if the proposed hotel is built that "sky-walk" away from Bartle would be at least one block away, physically, but more by actual walking.  That may not be much to you but for exhibitors and show managers that would be a very big deal.  Again, no one has answered the question asked before, if you were an exhibitor at a convention would you want to be in that space at the hotel or would you want to be where the action is, on the main floor?  You might say "well people staying at the hotel would visit the space but conventions that would use that much exhibit space would have people spread out at various hotels and going to that "hotel exhibit space" would not be a trip many would take.

Go the the web sites of the various convention centers around the country and view their exhibit space setup.  Freedom Hall is a central part of the space for the facility it is in.  Same for RCA Dome if memory is correct.  Many buildings do have larger "contiguous" than Bartle's 388k.  And "larger floor spaces" have more importance than "column-free" spaces.  Again, if you need 500k of floor space then Bartle is out whether or not it is "column-free".