OFFICIAL - Power & Light Apartments

[pstokely]

I was watching a very old episode of COPS last night and they had a shot of downtown.

Boy, I wish the P&L building was still lit up at night like this...

how old is that episode? KCPL didn't have to worry about electric bills when they owned it

[flyingember]

there's one episode in KC from 1995. could be then

[KCLover]

I was watching a very old episode of COPS last night and they had a shot of downtown.

Boy, I wish the P&L building was still lit up at night like this...

how old is that episode? KCPL didn't have to worry about electric bills when they owned it

I didn't even think to look at the info on the episode...darn.

I'm going to venture to guess KCP&L still owned the building in the episode though.

Edit: according to Wikipedia KCP&L left the building in 1991 so who knows.

[chrizow]

i wish i could buy all the COPS KCMO and KCK episodes on DVD. the KC eps were always good - either super raw, or hilarious. most COPS episodes feature relatively tame crime, but KC episodes had shootings, attacks with chains (as if KC is "Double Dragon"), stabbings, etc. but also ridiculous stuff like crazy naked people, livestock gone amok, and i remember one episode of some kool-aid mustache kid who stole the lighter out of his mom's purse in old northeast and received some stern widsom from KCPD.

[kcjak]

i wish i could buy all the COPS KCMO and KCK episodes on DVD. the KC eps were always good - either super raw, or hilarious. most COPS episodes feature relatively tame crime, but KC episodes had shootings, attacks with chains (as if KC is "Double Dragon"), stabbings, etc. but also ridiculous stuff like crazy naked people, livestock gone amok, and i remember one episode of some kool-aid mustache kid who stole the lighter out of his mom's purse in old northeast and received some stern widsom from KCPD.

Wasn't there an episode in KC where a lady actually pulled up her shirt and squirted breast milk at a police officer? Classic!

[pstokely]

i wish i could buy all the COPS KCMO and KCK episodes on DVD. the KC eps were always good - either super raw, or hilarious. most COPS episodes feature relatively tame crime, but KC episodes had shootings, attacks with chains (as if KC is "Double Dragon"), stabbings, etc. but also ridiculous stuff like crazy naked people, livestock gone amok, and i remember one episode of some kool-aid mustache kid who stole the lighter out of his mom's purse in old northeast and received some stern widsom from KCPD.

Wasn't there an episode in KC where a lady actually pulled up her shirt and squirted breast milk at a police officer? Classic!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQhXabKJd7o
What bar this at the time of filiming?

[scooterj]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQhXabKJd7o
What bar this at the time of filiming?

It looks like it was this building and 1991 was around the peak of when I used to hang out in that area, but I'm completely stumpred trying to remember what that was back then.

Edit: According to Kiva, at at the time of that episode it was called "Mama Stuffeatis". Later it became "50/50 On Main" before it ended up as a Speedy Cash.

[FangKC]

I don't know if everyone caught this little nugget of information at the end of this article about Cordish's One Light tower.

During the next decade, Cordish plans to add another 750 units at three other locations in the Power & Light District, Benjamin said recently. The sites include a surface lot adjacent to Alamo Drafthouse Mainstreet theater, a site behind the Bristol restaurant and a site behind Bar Louie.

In addition, Cordish reportedly has expressed interest in redeveloping the 30-story Kansas City Power & Light building, 1330 Baltimore Ave. The historic art deco office building would be converted into apartments as part of a project that would include construction of an adjacent high-rise hotel. Two hotel groups, including Omni Hotels & Resorts, reportedly are interested in the site.

http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/n ... 3&page=all

[ThorsteinVeblen]

Fang,

Definitely caught that in the article. There was another article I read recently that was talking about bank's willingness to finance upscale apartment complexes and multi-family construction in general...it was in the KCBJ. I know UMB and Commerce are overcapitalized and looking for quality loans to make. Given that margins are also improving it appears that banks are running over each other to hand out financing for these types of projects. If pre-leasing is strong for One Light I think Cordish would move quick on the rest of the projects given that the financing markets have opened back up again and assuming everything with the city goes smoothly.

[pash]

.

[earthling]

Downtown rentals might have to hit around $2/sqft before more hirise residential can be built w/out incentives. Low rise like Market Station can maybe be built for about $1.50/sqft w/out incentives but likely not more towers.

Up to $10M incentive is small potatoes over 30 years for a 300 unit hirise compared to the total cost of maintenance the City would have to spend to support a sprawling suburban neighborhood of 300 homes for 30-50+ years - roads, sewers, water, power, etc. For a hirise, they support less than 1 sq block. In that sense, we shouldn't mind reasonable incentives as long as it goes towards infrastructure and not directly in pocket of developer. TIF garages are also reasonable but only if they include free public parking as well.

[FangKC]

Depending on the success of the One Light tower, Cordish might also opt to build a condo tower, and sell the units at a higher per sq. foot price than rental apartments. They might do this by upgrading the interiors, and offering doorman and concierge services, and pool on the roof, gym, etc. But that depends on the strength of the condo market coming back, and it has been slower than single family houses.

Condo financing also depends of whether Cordish can get enough pre-sales to gauge demand. Maybe enough people will be able to pay cash to get pre-sales to the level to finance the building, and the rest of the units can be financed by buyers when sold. But the building will have to be pretty special and unique to get the cash buyers. However, in most cases, people can't get a mortgage on a condo until 50 percent of the units are sold, or occupied.

The City sort of has to take an initial risk, since no new speculative apartment towers have been built in downtown for decades. Especially ones this tall. There is no real gauge of the market for new luxury tower living in downtown. We have only had older office buildings and warehouses that were converted into housing. We don't really know what the market will support. It's sort of a test.

There are some promising signs in that downtown occupancy rates are above 95 percent, and there does seem to be some evidence that people are finding it difficult to find suitable housing downtown. Investors may also see it as a promising sign that a streetcar will be completed to make it easier for residents to get to the grocery and drug store, bank, post office, etc. A lot of the last vestiges or neighborhood blight are being removed, that cause developers to pause locating near it.

I think once the Argyle Building is renovated, and maybe the Pickwick Hotel, the worries will be lessened. Having a new downtown YMCA building will also help a great deal.

[earthling]

Depending on the success of the One Light tower, Cordish might also opt to build a condo tower, and sell the units at a higher per sq. foot price than rental apartments.

Will be surprised if we see a condo tower anytime soon unless they pre-sale maybe 80% - too risky otherwise. Wouldn't be surprised if Cordish 1 Light building is intended to eventually go condo and might even be designed to intentionally join some units down the road as some luxury rental tower builders are doing. Since there is now demand for luxury apts it makes more sense to build for that market. Once they fill the building, then maybe convert to condo a few years later if/when stronger condo demand returns. Very low risk approach.

Not sure about downtown but Plaza only has about 8% units for sale (compared to 13% a couple years ago), which signals more demand than selling. So condo market is returning in KC but newly built luxury apt to condo approach seems to be a lower risk approach unless able to mostly pre-sell a planned condo building. Cordish could _propose_ a condo tower and if not enough pre-sales, then do lease with maybe intent to later go condo.

http://forum.kcrag.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 6&p=516029

[flyingember]

don't count on tons more condos soon. it's not for lack of need but lack of basic services
I use the term condo to be more like a long-term home and an apartment could be long-term but is much more likely to be short term than condos

The Union Carbide Condos building is a good example. it's 80% apartments

and really, this comes down to the type of residents that are willing to move in to an area based on the services provided. think of a long-term resident. they need everything from doctors to daycare to banks.

and too many of these services have poor hours or are non-existent. and a large number of these services will come with more potential customers but not all of them. daycare is probably a huge hole in downtown for many more condos coming. and families are the next notable step for downtown. because if we want the urban core to redevelop seriously you need to drive families back.

[beautyfromashes]

^^
I think it's more a matter of price and the demographic that this now being attracted to downtown. Adventurous young people who want to be connected to a community, walk to events and restaurants/bars are probably not yet going to have the funds to buy $500K condos. But, I think this will change rather quickly. The market decides what is built and right now it's young singles who want to rent. The goal is to keep these people in the core once they get married and have kids instead of bolting for the suburbs out of pure necessity. This demographic now wants to stay in the city but it has to be safe and relatively clean and you have to have education options. I don't think you have to attract outside people to the core. They already are attracted to the city. You have to just keep those who are already here from moving out.

[flyingember]

^^
I think it's more a matter of price and the demographic that this now being attracted to downtown. Adventurous young people who want to be connected to a community, walk to events and restaurants/bars are probably not yet going to have the funds to buy $500K condos. But, I think this will change rather quickly. The market decides what is built and right now it's young singles who want to rent. The goal is to keep these people in the core once they get married and have kids instead of bolting for the suburbs out of pure necessity. This demographic now wants to stay in the city but it has to be safe and relatively clean and you have to have education options. I don't think you have to attract outside people to the core. They already are attracted to the city. You have to just keep those who are already here from moving out.

I agree on the upgrade aspect. it's something the city will need to look at figuring out. We expect we'll outgrow our house in about 5 years and the lack of family amenities is what will keep us out of downtown. I have no problem with downtown in principle. If it can draw residents but not keep them the area doesn't become a community. I've gone to Briarcliff neighborhood meetings and you can tell people are decades out long-term interested in the area. Passion is not lacking. Downtown has that but needs a lot more of it. When we see residents able to "drown out" NIMBYism from a single proiperty owner you'll know the passion is in full force.

Semi-related. It seems like historic structures work better for apartments. they tend to be smaller units that fit a 1-2 bedroom with showers only and designs around someone who's unmarried and spending time away from home. you don't see many small units working for families. you need bathtubs, more storage space, offices/play rooms, more bedrooms and such. having kids it's amazing how it's possible to dedicate an entire storage unit just to baby stuff. (I have the equivalent of one just in kids clothing in my basement) so the P&L building could make a wonderful apartment tower while the lot next door would be wonderful for larger, modern condos.

[pstokely]

people with kids want a yard for a wooden swingset, but childless couples are growing

[FangKC]

The thing is that the majority of the market is not families anymore. In many urban areas--especially central cities, families only comprise about 30 percent of the market now. Demographics have changed and there are a lot more single occupant households than ever before. When you take into account young singles, divorced, never married, childless, widow and widowers, and retired, they make up the majority of the real estate market now. The retired segment will only grow.

While not representative of the entire city, on my block alone in the Old Northeast, North Indian Mound, there are 27 houses. Of those, 13 are occupied by single people (almost half the block). 11 are households with a single occupant. Two are single people sharing the house as roommates. Another four houses are a married couples with no kids at home. If my count is correct, only 9 houses have kids. One house is empty right now. Of the 9 houses with kids, two of those are young parents sharing the house with their retired parents (they are big houses). So those two parent couples don't own their own home, and may move out at some point.

Add to that the fact that Kansas City residents don't really have much history and experience with dense urban living--like NYC, Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia where families do live in apartment towers. Kansas Citians aren't used to it, so most families go for the default of a single family house with a yard. Again, add to that the fact that they will be paying a premium of a higher per sq. foot cost for the living experience downtown, and get probably a smaller dwelling. You could find a family home much cheaper in close-in neighborhoods to downtown.

Add to that, if a family were to buy in a condo around Power & Light, there is no playground for children anywhere nearby. One that has a multitude of playground equipment, benches for parents, and is fenced to separate it from traffic. If a family doesn't have a yard, they will require a playground.

As far as condo sales, in most metros now, the driving force in the condo market are retired people, and to some extent, older professional couples, or divorced professionals, and younger adult singles that have higher incomes.

The ones with cash that can buy a empty new condo tower without financing are retirees--whether single, divorced, or married. They are looking for upscale living, and amenities/services in the building. The importance of buyers paying cash is paramount in an empty condo building, because of the 50 percent owner-occupancy rule for bank financing of condo purchases.

When rental apartments on Quality Hill started going condo, I was living there. I couldn't finance my apartment as a condo purchase because they didn't have 50 percent sold yet. I couldn't wait forever, so I bought a single family house. Albeit, that was 2008, and the real estate market had collapsed.

As far as the family segment goes, the portion of the family market that is looking/willing to live in a downtown area is fairly small.

Any first new condo tower will probably be marketed primarily to retirees who can put down cash, and higher income professional single and divorced people, and working couples without children. The first 50 percent of sales will probably be to retirees and professionals who can put down cash.

[pstokely]

how can young singles afford a condo when many can't even afford to move out of their parents basement? aren't most retirees who aren't ready to move to John Knox Village attracted to 1 floor ranch houses in Prairie Village? do families even make up most of the suburban housing market? probably won't for at least a while since the current birth rate is hitting a record low, many single people and childless couples in the suburban housing market, but why would people with kids buy a small condo downtown with crappy public schools and no amenities for kids when they could get more for their space $ in the suburbs with a yard and better schools? how many people in Brookside/Waldo will even keep their kids in the KCMSD when they're done with Border Star, will they even send them to Southwest HS?

[flyingember]

people with kids want a yard for a wooden swingset, but childless couples are growing

that actually is easily solved downtown. look at the Jones or the library or 909 Walnut for the model.

you build a private rooftop garden. as more families appear putting in a basic play set there share makes sense for existing