OFFICIAL: Port Authority Riverfront Project

[normalthings]

I am interested to see what Casino KC phase 2 will look like. I know a streetcar stop, hotel, and amphitheater were mentioned last year. It would be great if they put in an actual hotel and not just a house branded one.

Any indication of when it might get going?

Like the 4 Seasons at the downtown STL casino?

[langosta]

Make Casino KC a destination resort/casino. Big gaming floor, 5 star casino hotel, large outdoor pools, mid-level hotel later down the line.

Maybe we could even have riverboat cruises leaving from it.

[dukuboy1]

These are cool ideas, but the location they have to work with it I'm not sure what they can do. Bound by train tracks and heavy industry across the street to the South. You could have an amazing building/development but with Cargill Silo's across the street, which also dominate the same skyline. Do what you can for sure, but the area just looks "rough", which is one reason I thought the place always struggled. It was the smallest of local casinos but I think that had to do with the ownership realizing they were late to the game and their location was keeping players at bay because it looked so rough. I enjoyed going there and in the placed always treated players well

[normalthings]

"The Official Groundbreaking ceremony last week marked the beginning of our transformation to a world-class entertainment destination."

You are probably right that it won't become some national destination. However, with a new ampitheatre and streetcar connectio I can see it eventually becoming one of the busiest casinos in our region.

Look at who Bally's has running the KC operation. His experience seems to focus heavily on higher end casinos. Same guy was VP of Operations at riverfront Four Seasons and Casino in STL. Last job was CMO & SVP at a $3 billion casino resort.

[WoodDraw]

Isn’t the first River connection not even running there? lol

[Anthony_Hugo98]

Isn’t the first River connection not even running there? lol

Yeah, the first phase extension is just a stop right off the grand viaduct, a stop further down was proposed for second phase, pending funds for it.

[kboish]

I wonder which is longer. Grand viaduct to river front or HOA? Seems like we are squandering Fed money on the wrong bridge.

[flyingember]

I wonder which is longer. Grand viaduct to river front or HOA? Seems like we are squandering Fed money on the wrong bridge.

3rd and Grand Ave Viaduct is 3130 feet to the foot
To cross the river from 3rd and Grand and reach the riverfront via an elevator is 2940 feet
Total bridge length from 3rd to 10th Ave, 5790 feet

If we didn’t build rail to the riverfront there would be extra cost to move vertically down to ground level and it would be the only possible stop

Also “we” didn’t fund the grand viaduct line. The local portion is being funded through economic capture by Port KC.
There wasn’t money available for a different project

[kboish]

Paying $20 mil ($14 mil from feds) to get to the bottom of the viaduct seems pointless.

We, aka the city that owns the streetcar and the KCSA, and the Port, decided to use Fed funds to do that. Using $14 mil towards an HOA crossing seems like a better use to me.

[flyingember]

Paying $20 mil ($14 mil from feds) to get to the bottom of the viaduct seems pointless.

We, aka the city that owns the streetcar and the KCSA, and the Port, decided to use Fed funds to do that. Using $14 mil towards an HOA crossing seems like a better use to me.

Again, there wasn't $14 million just available to KC to spend.

We got the money over confidence in the development project that's being used to create the local match can provide the local funds we promised Within the context of a funding ask, the project only can create this value if the system is developed in the way that a specifically formatted study found was necessary.

The opportunity was
$14 million to follow Grand or $0 to go on HOA.

Because the people putting up the local match didn't want it on the HOA bridge. "We" isn't the city. "We" is the Port Authority. If it was a city project it would have needed to go to a citywide vote. PortKC could setup special districts without the city because they were leading the funding side.


https://kcstreetcar.org/about-streetcar ... extension/

The Kansas City Streetcar Authority, Port KC and the Kansas City Area Transportation Authority (KCATA) serve as partners on this preliminary study.

[normalthings]

Paying $20 mil ($14 mil from feds) to get to the bottom of the viaduct seems pointless.

We, aka the city that owns the streetcar and the KCSA, and the Port, decided to use Fed funds to do that. Using $14 mil towards an HOA crossing seems like a better use to me.

The opportunity was
$14 million to follow Grand or $0 to go on HOA.

Exactly. The Feds gave us a grant to go down Grand. There is no local or Federal funding to go down the HOA.

[WoodDraw]

Paying $20 mil ($14 mil from feds) to get to the bottom of the viaduct seems pointless.

We, aka the city that owns the streetcar and the KCSA, and the Port, decided to use Fed funds to do that. Using $14 mil towards an HOA crossing seems like a better use to me.

The opportunity was
$14 million to follow Grand or $0 to go on HOA.

Exactly. The Feds gave us a grant to go down Grand. There is no local or Federal funding to go down the HOA.

It’s not like the feds came in and were like you know what would be sweet?

We got the money because we studied it and bid for it. Let’s not put these decisions above criticism.

[normalthings]

The opportunity was
$14 million to follow Grand or $0 to go on HOA.

Exactly. The Feds gave us a grant to go down Grand. There is no local or Federal funding to go down the HOA.

It’s not like the feds came in and were like you know what would be sweet?

We got the money because we studied it and bid for it. Let’s not put these decisions above criticism.

Not sure why anyone thinks HOA was or could have been an alternative. That route is far longer (more costly) and once you get over the bridge it’s a long ways to where development is happening.

There is no local match available. The Port KC local match funds come from developers paying for a streetcar extension to their neighborhood.

[kboish]

Paying $20 mil ($14 mil from feds) to get to the bottom of the viaduct seems pointless.

We, aka the city that owns the streetcar and the KCSA, and the Port, decided to use Fed funds to do that. Using $14 mil towards an HOA crossing seems like a better use to me.

The opportunity was
$14 million to follow Grand or $0 to go on HOA.

Exactly. The Feds gave us a grant to go down Grand. There is no local or Federal funding to go down the HOA.

What are we talking about? No, no it wasn't always the only option. Was using the Grand Viaduct what KCSA and the Port have been studying? yes, and that is why the Feds awarded us money for it. but, i'm saying the way they are going about this is going to end up a waste, they'd have been better off pursuing a short term solution that paved the way to a river crossing.

I feel like no one has any idea the history of why/how we ended up where we are. We started studying going down to the riverfront in 2014 after it seemed like going across the river was not going to happen anytime soon. As you'll recall, there were many people at the time saying it is short sighted to do so via grand. You create an orphaned spur. If the payoff is incredible, then maybe its worth it. So, if this was going all the way to the casino and serving what will become a dense well developed riverfront, then yeah, maybe its worth it. (spoiler alert, thats not what is happening)

It seems to me like this decision was made just to "do something". Which is always a bad idea. So, what will happen is this will *only* go to the bottom of the viaduct and then stop at the fringe of a suburban apartment sprawl and nothing more. OTOH had we been doing something sensible, like getting ready to cross the river, we might have used that money to bridge (pun intended) the gap in the funds needed for NKC to fund a line to HOA.

The shortfall in NKC TDD funding was pretty much the river crossing cost estimates which were only about $25 million. You're more than half way there if you use this grant plus some Port funds.

At one point some people even agreed this seemed like a good idea.

The bridge seems like a logical starting point. It could be a bus transfer point.

Originally I liked the on HOA single track idea but with the riverfront project coming in and phase 2 east largely dead for now, an elevated station on a new bridge means we can serve that development too without needing to run track down the viaduct (roughly $25 million?) and could put a stop in Columbus Park at Holmes or Charlotte, both key areas to serve downtown. It's not just a bridge to NKC, even ending at 10th Ave that would be three stops on a spur line and a key connection to the riverfront that's lacking today.

That's a $50-55 million project when built? That's within the scale of multiple funding sources putting in part of the money.
NKC, MARC federal funds, the state, KC general, KC 4th piac, Port Authority, Clay County all could pay a portion. It's within the realm of doable without waiting a long time.

Alternatively, we will now have a spur down a viaduct that ends near...what? This will not make sense in the future and will complicate the system. It is a waste of these federal dollars.

[WoodDraw]

Exactly. The Feds gave us a grant to go down Grand. There is no local or Federal funding to go down the HOA.

It’s not like the feds came in and were like you know what would be sweet?

We got the money because we studied it and bid for it. Let’s not put these decisions above criticism.

Not sure why anyone thinks HOA was or could have been an alternative. That route is far longer (more costly) and once you get over the bridge it’s a long ways to where development is happening.

There is no local match available. The Port KC local match funds come from developers paying for a streetcar extension to their neighborhood.

I was only pushing back on saying it was all fed driven and above criticism. To me, it’s a bit of a streetcar to nowhere since it doesn’t even reach the casino.

But I’ll take the free money and extra cars it brings.

[normalthings]

The opportunity was
$14 million to follow Grand or $0 to go on HOA.

Exactly. The Feds gave us a grant to go down Grand. There is no local or Federal funding to go down the HOA.

What are we talking about? No, no it wasn't always the only option. Was using the Grand Viaduct what KCSA and the Port have been studying? yes, and that is why the Feds awarded us money for it. but, i'm saying the way they are going about this is going to end up a waste, they'd have been better off pursuing a short term solution that paved the way to a river crossing.

I feel like no one has any idea the history of why/how we ended up where we are. We started studying going down to the riverfront in 2014 after it seemed like going across the river was not going to happen anytime soon. As you'll recall, there were many people at the time saying it is short sighted to do so via grand. You create an orphaned spur. If the payoff is incredible, then maybe its worth it. So, if this was going all the way to the casino and serving what will become a dense well developed riverfront, then yeah, maybe its worth it. (spoiler alert, thats not what is happening)

It seems to me like this decision was made just to "do something". Which is always a bad idea. So, what will happen is this will *only* go to the bottom of the viaduct and then stop at the fringe of a suburban apartment sprawl and nothing more. OTOH had we been doing something sensible, like getting ready to cross the river, we might have used that money to bridge (pun intended) the gap in the funds needed for NKC to fund a line to HOA.

The shortfall in NKC TDD funding was pretty much the river crossing cost estimates which were only about $25 million. You're more than half way there if you use this grant plus some Port funds.

At one point some people even agreed this seemed like a good idea.

The bridge seems like a logical starting point. It could be a bus transfer point.

Originally I liked the on HOA single track idea but with the riverfront project coming in and phase 2 east largely dead for now, an elevated station on a new bridge means we can serve that development too without needing to run track down the viaduct (roughly $25 million?) and could put a stop in Columbus Park at Holmes or Charlotte, both key areas to serve downtown. It's not just a bridge to NKC, even ending at 10th Ave that would be three stops on a spur line and a key connection to the riverfront that's lacking today.

That's a $50-55 million project when built? That's within the scale of multiple funding sources putting in part of the money.
NKC, MARC federal funds, the state, KC general, KC 4th piac, Port Authority, Clay County all could pay a portion. It's within the realm of doable without waiting a long time.

Alternatively, we will now have a spur down a viaduct that ends near...what? This will not make sense in the future and will complicate the system. It is a waste of these federal dollars.

If you want it to ever go past NKC, then it should all be LRT in the first place imho. Suburban streetcar doesn't make sense to me. Doing HOA right now would have locked us intro streetcar when maybe in 10-15 years LRT in our metro could be an option. There is really nothing that indicates NKC will be happening soon other than maybe if COVID stimulus pays for it which is something we really never could have guessed. HOA Streetcar being applying for Fed Funds could very well have been viewed as "shortsighted" down the road.

NKC Cost: $40 million double track over HOA + $10 million for a streetcar + $5-15 million for lines leading to HOA and terminus station
RF Cost: $20 million for a double track of Grand, lines to/from, and terminus

Apples to Oranges and you still have not identified a way we could have paid for a local match over the HOA. We would never have been able to get a Federal grant to just cross HOA either.

There will be 1,000 residents immediately adjacent to the "End of the RF line" by the end of next year. That number will go up to 1500-2000 by the time the RF Phase 1 opens not including anything built deeper into the RF. The population at the end of the HOA is 0. Taking the RF to Casino KC is an immediate goal. That is why they are advancing with the design so quickly.

[flyingember]

If you want it to ever go past NKC, then it should all be LRT in the first place imho. Suburban streetcar doesn't make sense to me. Doing HOA right now would have locked us intro streetcar when maybe in 10-15 years LRT in our metro could be an option. There is really nothing that indicates NKC will be happening soon other than maybe if COVID stimulus pays for it which is something we really never could have guessed. HOA Streetcar being applying for Fed Funds could very well have been viewed as "shortsighted" down the road.

Doing HOA right now has zero impact on going LRT further out.

Look at Houston for one possibility. It's mostly light rail style (dedicated lane, wide stops) everywhere except inside their downtown, which has the same average spacing as our streetcar system, some running in mixed traffic

Plenty of systems share a bridge between systems, such as Portland, so building the bridge for one system makes it more likely we can build a second system on top of the bridge too. I picture the most need for high speed LRT to go to the airport, so two systems sharing track inside NKC and having the airport line turnaround be somewhere along 3rd with one same platform stop could work among several ideas.

Short of a few possible segments, only the top speed of our trains would make any real style impact and if it runs up N. Oak going above 40mph really isn't a good idea for safety

And I would agree that even NKC should have wider stop spacing per mile than downtown and even less as you go north from there. Downtown is one stop every ~2.5 blocks. NKC is 22 blocks and should have closer to 5 stops. (10th, 14th, Armour, 26th, terminus) for ~4.4 blocks per Stop. The south of Union Station to plaza section is one stop every 3.5 blocks for comparison

Briarcliff needs one stop at the park and one stop at 42nd with the next one being at/near Vivion. One stop per ~7 blocks. There's not enough jobs or residents directly along N. Oak to need more. A park stop also serves the major building on the corridor and the land with the space to go dense is within walking distance of these two.

But there's no reason that couldn't be the same system.

[flyingember]

but, i'm saying the way they are going about this is going to end up a waste, they'd have been better off pursuing a short term solution that paved the way to a river crossing.

You keep confusing who "they" is

They is the Port Authority primarily

they want track to their development so they're paying for track to their development and they put in a funding request to the feds to help pay for exactly this.

The rest is irrelevant at the end of the day

I believe the Port Authority even paid for the entire $300k for the initial feasibility study, but I would need to double check that I'm remembering right but don't care to because it doesn't matter

[alejandro46]

If you want it to ever go past NKC, then it should all be LRT in the first place imho. Suburban streetcar doesn't make sense to me. Doing HOA right now would have locked us intro streetcar when maybe in 10-15 years LRT in our metro could be an option. There is really nothing that indicates NKC will be happening soon other than maybe if COVID stimulus pays for it which is something we really never could have guessed. HOA Streetcar being applying for Fed Funds could very well have been viewed as "shortsighted" down the road.

Doing HOA right now has zero impact on going LRT further out.

Look at Houston for one possibility. It's mostly light rail style (dedicated lane, wide stops) everywhere except inside their downtown, which has the same average spacing as our streetcar system, some running in mixed traffic

Plenty of systems share a bridge between systems, such as Portland, so building the bridge for one system makes it more likely we can build a second system on top of the bridge too. I picture the most need for high speed LRT to go to the airport, so two systems sharing track inside NKC and having the airport line turnaround be somewhere along 3rd with one same platform stop could work among several ideas.

Short of a few possible segments, only the top speed of our trains would make any real style impact and if it runs up N. Oak going above 40mph really isn't a good idea for safety

And I would agree that even NKC should have wider stop spacing per mile than downtown and even less as you go north from there. Downtown is one stop every ~2.5 blocks. NKC is 22 blocks and should have closer to 5 stops. (10th, 14th, Armour, 26th, terminus) for ~4.4 blocks per Stop. The south of Union Station to plaza section is one stop every 3.5 blocks for comparison

Briarcliff needs one stop at the park and one stop at 42nd with the next one being at/near Vivion. One stop per ~7 blocks. There's not enough jobs or residents directly along N. Oak to need more. A park stop also serves the major building on the corridor and the land with the space to go dense is within walking distance of these two.

But there's no reason that couldn't be the same system.

Agreed. The point of our streetcar system is a people mover for added convenience and no cost versus car. There is no point in spending a ton of money for a Phoenix style LRT system when the distance to the airport isn't really that far nor would that high of speeds be required. We want it to stop a lot so more developers can build buildings along the route and residents can easily access the streetcar.

[Riverite]

I don’t think we need lrt in the northland in the meantime. A street car that slowly builds up combined with zoning reform would drive density and could change things in the future. As far as the airport a free or cheap express bus to downtown and the plaza would be plenty. Honestly a bus with two stops is probably nicer anyways.