The Health Care Debate

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aknowledgeableperson
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Re: The Health Care Debate

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

Because the pool for such a situation would probably be so statistically small
I am not sure how it works under ACA but there are small pools all the time in health insurance. An employer with a pool of 100 employees and dependents could have quite a different rate for the same coverage as an employer with a pool of 10,000 employees and dependents.

To put it into a different scale there could be two insurance companies in the same market. One large in that it writes 80% of the business. The smaller one writes 20% of the business. They will have different pools since their memberships will be different.
pash
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Re: The Health Care Debate

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knucklehead
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Re: The Health Care Debate

Post by knucklehead »

That is true, -- but over the average lifetime any age based cross subsidies should even out.

people pay more when they are young and pay less when they are old. If they live to be old enough, they don't end up subsidizing anyone.

This same concept applies to medicare. Young people pay medicare payroll taxes for years before they are eligible for medicare benefits.

This is typically viewed as the person paying for their medicare benefits in advance. The same concept applies to the age based price levelization feature of Obamacare.
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FangKC
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Re: The Health Care Debate

Post by FangKC »

It is not unusual for difference ages within insurance pools to subsidize others. It happened long before Obamacare in the private insurance market.

There are 70-year-old people that have never really been high-utilizers of health care. Conceivably, this person, let's say a woman, doesn't have heart disease, high cholesterol, diabetes, mental health problems, and rarely gets the cold or flu even. I'm 51, and I never get colds or the flu. I haven't had the flu in at least 10 years, and I can't remember the last time I had even a cold. A lot of risk comes down simply to one's genetics.

Doesn't exist? My grandma lived to be 103-years-old and she hardly ever went to the doctor, was never in an accident, and didn't take any prescription drugs in her entire life. She was opposed to taking pills. :D She never had a any major health event. She never had diabetes. Yes, she had children, but she never had one in a hospital--all at home. Her sister lived to be 93, and she was the same. Never went to the doctor, and had no chronic illnesses.

In fact, with the high rate of obesity and diabetes among young people, there are probably some older people that are much healthier than their young counterparts.

So if we are going to use specific exceptions in the health care market, these two women would have subsidized others with their insurance premiums--even into their advanced old-age.

And AKP's example of 100 vs. 1000 employer based pools is a red herring.--at least for the insurance company. Yes, the 100 employee company will pay more per employee for insurance coverage. However that 100 employee company is not the insurance pool by itself.

Any insurance company takes groups of employees in companies, and combines them all into one larger insurance pool. Let's say Sprint and Acme Plumbing Fixtures Company each by group insurance with Humana. Sprint has 1000s of employees and Acme has 100.

Humana combines Sprint and Acme employees into one large insurance pool. The pool becomes the total number of all employees covered from all the companies that seek insurance, and with Humana, that might mean several million people.

As far as these bare-bones coverage plans go for young people, a large majority of them are basically worthless. Even when one is young, you cannot predict when you will become ill, or for what reason. Trying to isolate risk is fool-hardy. If you do become ill, your coverage might not cover it, and if the cost is high enough, you will end up costing taxpayers money. People with limited amounts of coverage often end up on Medicaid when they become ill, and that costs the taxpayer for their catastrophic medical bills.

I used to work for the Medicaid program, and believe me, it happens all the time. It's called the spend-down provision. When your medical bills suddenly become high--even as a young person, and are added to your monthly income, you spend-down into eligibility. A lot of under-insured people spend-down into eligibility for Medicaid while they are lying in a hospital bed.

It's at that moment that people with bare-bones coverage becomes the taxpayers' problem.

And deciding that one doesn't require mental health coverage when young is not wise either because one-out-of-four Americans experiences mental illness (young age doesn't make a difference). In fact, mental illness is the most likely thing to happen to a young person. Mental illness is one of the lesser age-specific medical problems in that one is just as likely to become mental ill at some point whether one is 20- or 60-years-old.

One of the most common problems associated with mental illness is substance abuse. People start self-medicating because of the underlying mental illness. A few social drinks suddenly become alcoholism. The majority of substance abusers have an underlying mental illness.
aknowledgeableperson
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Re: The Health Care Debate

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And AKP's example of 100 vs. 1000 employer based pools is a red herring.--at least for the insurance company. Yes, the 100 employee company will pay more per employee for insurance coverage. However that 100 employee company is not the insurance pool by itself.

Any insurance company takes groups of employees in companies, and combines them all into one larger insurance pool. Let's say Sprint and Acme Plumbing Fixtures Company each by group insurance with Humana. Sprint has 1000s of employees and Acme has 100.

Humana combines Sprint and Acme employees into one large insurance pool. The pool becomes the total number of all employees covered from all the companies that seek insurance, and with Humana, that might mean several million people.
Yes and no.

Why do you think that 100 employee company might have higher premiums? Because of its own pool based on experience. That is why a very expensive cancer case or premature baby case can affect greatly a small employer whereas it is just another case buried on paper for a larger one. Now they may be all put together into one pool for reinsurance purposes but for rates to be charged they are in separate pools.

That is why you have small companies band together, either by trade organization, local chamber of commerce, etc, to form a bigger pool so that the expensive case can be spread around more than one group.
studentper
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Re: The Health Care Debate

Post by studentper »

FangKC wrote:
It's at that moment that people with bare-bones coverage becomes the taxpayers' problem.
If this is the problem you identify in the private market, the ACA does nothing to correct it. The ACA coverage I can purchase costs 80 percent more, has a higher deductible, higher copay, higher deductible, smaller network, and covers nothing more that's useful to the insured than the previous private policy I had. So, the ACA policy is more bare-bones than what we had before and has the added benefit of paying the doctors less.

I could change the insured's income to get a subsidized cost, but then the insured would become the taxpayers' problem.
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grovester
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Re: The Health Care Debate

Post by grovester »

Elimination of caps would be the biggest factor. That's how you go bankrupt.
aknowledgeableperson
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Re: The Health Care Debate

Post by aknowledgeableperson »

Plus dropping pre-existing conditions.
studentper
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Re: The Health Care Debate

Post by studentper »

true, with preexisting conditions, the insured needed to show some personal responsibility and buy insurance when she didn't have an immediate perceived need for it. Of course, if you're going to make the argument that people who don't think they need insurance don't buy it, the ACA does nothing to solve that problem, it only rescues people for prior bets that turned out to be wrong.

I have no problem with lifetime limits. They're spelled out pretty clearly in the policy ahead of time, and you just have decide if those limits are something you're willing to live with. The ACA policy rates show that if you get rid of limitations, rates go up. We now no longer have a choice.
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grovester
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Re: The Health Care Debate

Post by grovester »

You shouldn't have that choice. Exceeding lifetime limits leads directly to bankruptcy. It's not like you've had too many cases of the flu over the years, you've likely got a chronic degenerative disease that costs more over time.
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Re: The Health Care Debate

Post by phuqueue »

The more you allow people to limit their coverage, the more likely you make it that some sort of care they'll need in the future won't be covered, which undermines the entire system. You shouldn't be allowed to opt out of coverage you might need. The lower rates that you get to pay for your limited coverage mean that you're just shifting the burden of your medical costs onto the rest of us if you end up needing that care. There is, of course, the possibility that you won't ever need that care, but that's the whole point of insurance -- everybody who might need something kicks in so that those who do end up needing it can get it. It doesn't matter if you're personally comfortable with having lifetime coverage only up to a certain amount, because when you exceed that amount it's everybody else who has to foot the bill for you.
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Re: The Health Care Debate

Post by pash »

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grovester
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Re: The Health Care Debate

Post by grovester »

I don't have to advocate it, it's the law.
pash
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Re: The Health Care Debate

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grovester
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Re: The Health Care Debate

Post by grovester »

Insurance caps are good policy? Seriously?
studentper
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Re: The Health Care Debate

Post by studentper »

grovester wrote:I don't have to advocate it, it's the law.
While I understand you're just being snide, unlimited coverage is not what the ACA mandates, so if you want to advocate for unlimited coverage, do it. Also, unlimited coverage certainly doesn't mean everyone gets treatment.
knucklehead
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Re: The Health Care Debate

Post by knucklehead »

Another big pharma company busted for fraud.

Can't decide which are bigger creeps - big pharma or insurance companies.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/ ... MM20131104
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grovester
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Re: The Health Care Debate

Post by grovester »

studentper wrote:
grovester wrote:I don't have to advocate it, it's the law.
While I understand you're just being snide, unlimited coverage is not what the ACA mandates, so if you want to advocate for unlimited coverage, do it. Also, unlimited coverage certainly doesn't mean everyone gets treatment.
Maybe we were talking past each other with terminology.

https://www.healthcare.gov/how-does-the ... me/#part=9

"Lifetime Limits

Insurance companies can’t set a dollar limit on what they spend on essential health benefits for your care during the entire time you’re enrolled in that plan.

Yearly Limits

Insurance companies can still set a yearly dollar limit of $2 million on what they spend for your coverage for plan years or policy years starting before January 1, 2014. No yearly dollar limits on essential health benefits are allowed for plan years starting January 1, 2014."

Hope you didn't think I was talking about unlimited breast enhancement.
studentper
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Re: The Health Care Debate

Post by studentper »

grovester wrote:
studentper wrote:
grovester wrote:I don't have to advocate it, it's the law.
While I understand you're just being snide, unlimited coverage is not what the ACA mandates, so if you want to advocate for unlimited coverage, do it. Also, unlimited coverage certainly doesn't mean everyone gets treatment.
Maybe we were talking past each other with terminology.

Hope you didn't think I was talking about unlimited breast enhancement.

:D No, I got it, although removing lifetime limits doesn't really do anything if you buy one of the ACA EPO plans, and there's no provider who performs that service. Or, just take it out of an ACA argument, and you can pay anything you want for a heart transplant, but it's not going to increase the number of heart transplants in the US. In many areas, there's only so much healthcare out there for people to consume.
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Re: The Health Care Debate

Post by shinatoo »

harbinger911 wrote:
knucklehead wrote:Another big pharma company busted for fraud.
Can't decide which are bigger creeps - big pharma or insurance companies.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/ ... MM20131104
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