Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

[GRID]

the term "streetcar" is now used interchangeably with Commuter Rail and Light Rail in KC.

I get that most people don't know the differences, but no form of "rail" makes sense to KCI. I just don't get the obsession. And this push to extend the streetcars to areas outside the very central portion of the urban core also makes no sense.

KC built a "tram". It's an urban bus line that suburbanites will ride, but it's also nicer for those that live near it, so it really does create economic development. It's not a "starter" line of a regional mass transit system. It's simply a way to get around center city, mostly for short trips etc.

A built out system in 50 years should look more like 20 plus miles of streetcar/tram whatever you want to call it connecting key center city areas together. Anything regional will co-exist with the streetcars. LRT or Commuter Rail would come into the city and the riders would then use the tram system to reach their final destinations.

The city just needs to concentrate on building up the streetcar line along Main Street. Build a super high quality, high density corridor there and along other corridors like Troost, Armour, Indep Ave etc. Running them to places like Metcalf? No.

[normalthings]

the term "streetcar" is now used interchangeably with Commuter Rail and Light Rail in KC.

I get that most people don't know the differences, but no form of "rail" makes sense to KCI.

Agree...... but politically it might make sense (I have no idea if its true)

I just don't get the obsession. And this push to extend the streetcars to areas outside the very central portion of the urban core also makes no sense.

KC built a "tram". It's an urban bus line that suburbanites will ride. It's not a "starter" line of a regional mass transit system. It's simply a way to get around center city, mostly for short trips etc.

A built out system in 50 years should look more like 20 plus miles of streetcar/tram whatever you want to call it connecting key center city areas together. Anything regional will co-exist with the streetcars. LRT or Commuter Rail would come into the city and the riders would then use the tram system to reach their final destinations.

The city just needs to concentrate on building up the streetcar line along Main Street. Build a super high quality, high density corridor there and along other corridors like Troost, Armour, Indep Ave etc.

Also agree. When people say "I want streetcar in Waldo or OP" they are saying they that they want rail designed to serve those built enviroments.

[AlkaliAxel]

I just don’t get the people who complain about the pace of things being too slow and then go “here’s 50 reasons why progress and speeding up the pace is stupid”.

[kas1]

It doesn't make any sense to build separate light rail and streetcar networks when the streetcar already uses light rail technology. Rails are just a piece of infrastructure. Nothing says you can't mix and match services and nothing says you can't change those services in the future. Building a mixed-traffic streetcar through the middle of downtown was not great long-term planning, but now that it's there you might as well connect other stuff to it because that's all that's available to get people where they want to go. Build branches going wherever you're gonna be building more transit, and when you run out of capacity on the trunk line then you know it's time for tunnels or other major investments downtown.

Honestly the best thing to do would be to plan all future transit expansions with the idea that some day there will eventually just be a tunnel along all of the current streetcar line. Some of the earliest subway systems were just streetcar/el networks that added some tunnels when they needed more capacity. We could learn a thing or two from studying history. Systems should be designed to accommodate incremental improvements over time. And unified systems are better than disjointed systems. So build some "light rail" extensions for the streetcar line. It's not optimal design and it's not what makes sense long-term, but that's okay. It's a stepping stone.

[alejandro46]

A streetcar to KCI is just stupid. End of discussion. I don't see the point of taking the streetcar any further than downtown NKC to the north and Brookside to the south.

I'm not going to respond point by point as I disagree with you about having rail trainsit beyond urban core/KCI and it's already been said. Please help me understand the feasibility to fund fund urban core streetcar expansion. Even just Nextrail plan is not feasible with a KCMO only vote, the Northland is not going to vote for that and the last ballot measure passed required a citywide vote for additional streetcar funding. If you did do a streetcar north, it would be connecting major nodes up North Oak (NKC - Gladstone - Metro North- Zona Rosa - KCI). Hitting both counties in one line and have a clear end point plus a lot of room for growth along the way.

[earthling]

Rail generally only works with high density. KC is not a high density metro outside urban KCMO and older parts of KCK - and they aren't really even high density by big city standards. NKC is borderline and if they can't make rail work, don't expect the rest of metro to. MAX is the way to go, or real BRT with dedicated paths/lanes when possible until more areas dense up that can justify rail.

[Karambit25]

A 3rd Phase going north will halt the south-southwest momentum of the metro and change the dynamic.

[AlkaliAxel]

Well it seems like there's a resounding "NO" on any more rail beyond Phase 3 expansions. Moving along to other projects then...

[TheLastGentleman]

If kc stops thinking rail after being lucky enough to have a successful streetcar system it’ll be among the most absurd mistakes the city has ever made. Literally found the one form of transit everyone is happy to use in an otherwise exclusively car-centric metro and decided to call it quits within the first decade of operation.

[FangKC]

I have no objection to a streetcar going north along Oak to Gladstone and then see what happens. There are a lot of parcels along Oak that could be developed into something much denser. KCMO certainly needs to create some density in the Northland and this would be a good start. A test case.

[alejandro46]

A 3rd Phase going north will halt the south-southwest momentum of the metro and change the dynamic.

I don't think Northland is going ahead of East-West at all. If we are talking "Phases," I'd say Phase 4 (Main,Main II+River, East-West, NKC). Currently only "East West" connectivity (think KU Med to Truman) is under initial study followed by North Kansas City. NKC has to figure out how to fund a ~$30M+++ bridge crossing. My money on any "Phase 3" is definitely KU Med to Linwood west as far as our dollars would take us (Arrowhead I think would be a good termanus, although like KCI as stated above and discussed here many times, TSC is not going to generate as many daily traffic, but for systemwide connectivity and potential to develop the Leeds/surrounding TSC area and have an alternative gameday option especially for downtown residents and out of towners who don't want to tailgate it seems logical to phase it out that way.

[CorneliusFB]

I have no objection to a streetcar going north along Oak to Gladstone and then see what happens. There are a lot of parcels along Oak that could be developed into something much denser. KCMO certainly needs to create some density in the Northland and this would be a good start. A test case.

I like this route for the northland. I think it unlocks fantastic opportunities for redevelopment and increased density in those inner ring suburbs. Way better opportunity than a KCI route where so much of that path is planned for industrial/distribution development.

[dukuboy1]

I was not talking about a street car to the airport. I was thinking a light rail system. Just a system where ppl could do park and ride & visitors could get to other parts of the metro not in a cab or Uber. It’s wishful thinking given the easy access via car for everyone who uses the airport. But to call it stupid shows your own dull intelligence & lack of ideas /vision. It would be a mass transit system that incurs cost paid by the users. From parking at the park & ride & the “ticket to ride”. It would be a viable alternative to parking at the airport & or taking cab/Uber. Perhaps it would be considered a premium service as your are less invested in time & effort but the system could be a revenue generator for the city, even if profits were sparse it would still be profits. But again these are ideas & we can see that from your post your are short on ideas & prefer channeling your energies into other things

[GRID]

You need to read my post again. I didn't say no "rail" beyond NKC-Brookside, I said no streetcar. At least not till there is more coverage in the urban core and then maybe look at going to Gladstone etc, but not all the way to KCI.

KCI can be easily well served by a high quality coach bus line that could be funded and built with a fraction of the money in a fraction of the time. It would be easier to use for most people too. Unless KCMO has a couple billion dollars just sitting around, there is no chance that a rail system is built to KCI. The numbers just do not work and they probably never will for a rail system to KCI. It is what it is.

So concentrate on where rail actually has a chance of being funded, built and successful. That is to the east, southeast, south in Jackson County and into Johnson County along 35. Rail to KCI or Village West is just never going to happen. Too far, too sparsely populated and neither will ever be populated enough to support LRT.

And yes, I understand that KCMO will never pass a regional transit vote unless the Northland gets something. But promising rail to KCI and then figuring out it will cost 1-2 billion just to do that and it will have a very low ridership projections and therefore score very low for federal money would only delay and derail where LRT could work and could do some good. I mean we are talking about KCMO right? KCMO still has some of the worst looking basic infrastructure of any large city in the country and new projects are funded bare bones. I'm just being realistic here.

If KC ever wants to get a real transit system built, it needs to concentrate on Jackson County. Clay and Platte can join in if they want improved transit that might include high quality BRT, maybe help fund a streetcar up part of N Oak etc, but Jackson County is really the only place where you can actually make some of the numbers work for LRT or any form of high level fixed rail.

The part of KC within Jackson County and the rest of the cities in Jackson County should be the ones spearheading a regional transit system, not rail to KCI, which seems to always be the posterchild of KC"s future transit system.

[GRID]

I was not talking about a street car to the airport. I was thinking a light rail system. Just a system where ppl could do park and ride & visitors could get to other parts of the metro not in a cab or Uber. It’s wishful thinking given the easy access via car for everyone who uses the airport. But to call it stupid shows your own dull intelligence & lack of ideas /vision. It would be a mass transit system that incurs cost paid by the users. From parking at the park & ride & the “ticket to ride”. It would be a viable alternative to parking at the airport & or taking cab/Uber. Perhaps it would be considered a premium service as your are less invested in time & effort but the system could be a revenue generator for the city, even if profits were sparse it would still be profits. But again these are ideas & we can see that from your post your are short on ideas & prefer channeling your energies into other things

I have posted plenty of ideas that I think have a chance of getting funded, built and utilized enough to justify being funded and built. I have literarily spent my entire life studying urban transit. I work in the field. I have followed nearly every modern transit system in the USA from Idea and implementation to expansion since the 1990's. I have a good idea what has a chance of being funded, what has a chance of ever getting off the drawing board etc. I'm just trying to get people to push toward things that will work and could actually be done in the next 20-30 years.

Metro KC, even if only the MO side, needs to sit down and make a regional plan without thinking county and city lines and crunch some hard numbers on what a transit system might look like and then figure out how to work around political lines. I'm telling you. Rail to KCI would be like number 50 in the real world even though it's like number one to the general public. The same general public that didn't want to replace KCI airport's terminal in a more timely manner.

[AlkaliAxel]

I have posted plenty of ideas that I think have a chance of getting funded, built and utilized enough to justify being funded and built. I have literarily spent my entire life studying urban transit. I work in the field. I have followed nearly every modern transit system in the USA from Idea and implementation to expansion since the 1990's. I have a good idea what has a chance of being funded, what has a chance of ever getting off the drawing board etc. I'm just trying to get people to push toward things that will work and could actually be done in the next 20-30 years.

Metro KC, even if only the MO side, needs to sit down and make a regional plan without thinking county and city lines and crunch some hard numbers on what a transit system might look like and then figure out how to work around political lines. I'm telling you. Rail to KCI would be like number 50 in the real world even though it's like number one to the general public. The same general public that didn't want to replace KCI airport's terminal in a more timely manner.

Seeing Denvers RTD rail was a gamechanger for me (especially the suburban routes). Now I really don't know if there's a need here for regional rail. I still think if rail here won't get you downtown faster than the car will, absolutely nobody will use it. And then it will fail and we'll be in big trouble. Commute times are quick in KC and I don't see the use of it.

I think the streetcar in urban core has more practical use. People actually need it. I personally can't wait till it gets finished building down Main because it'll make my life a hell of alot easier. I'm sure for many others too. But if I was still back in JoCo? Then I'd take the car over a train that stops too much and is slow. I think the need is in more urban streetcar. I just don't know where and how much to put in.

[AlkaliAxel]

I also think we may throw out the old assumptions and rules about what KC and the region wants for rail post-Main St extension if things go well. We should re-evaluate the public perception at that point.

[kas1]

Commute times are quick in KC

But how many more office jobs can be added downtown before that stops being true? It's been a long time since I've driven downtown during rush hour, but back when I did I always lost several minutes to congestion, and I assume that hadn't changed much up until the pandemic. Once traffic is at that level it's gonna get worse in a hurry if you add more cars into the mix.

Anything that's proposed today isn't gonna be operational for ten years minimum. Last thing you want to have happen is that downtown finally gets some corporate momentum but then companies start leaving again because traffic becomes a problem and there's nothing in the works to address it.

If the Royals do move downtown then that's probably the best opportunity to put a plan on the ballot because you'll probably pick up a lot of votes from people who don't otherwise care about downtown but can see themselves taking a train to avoid the clusterfuck of trying to park at a downtown baseball game. Assuming it's actually a good proposal.

[AlkaliAxel]

If the Royals do move downtown then that's probably the best opportunity to put a plan on the ballot because you'll probably pick up a lot of votes from people who don't otherwise care about downtown but can see themselves taking a train to avoid the clusterfuck of trying to park at a downtown baseball game. Assuming it's actually a good proposal.

This part I think has merit.

I've said in the past that the best way to get "the region" to ever come around on rail was putting the Royals downtown. That's the only way you'll get your average JoCo resident to care.

Idk where you'd put the routes at, but I'll reiterate again, it cannot be like Denver's RTD. This train needs to be fast. All people seem to give a fucking shit about is their damn "cOnVeNiEnCe" so if it's not a convenient train then the cars will put it out of business.

[GRID]

I have posted plenty of ideas that I think have a chance of getting funded, built and utilized enough to justify being funded and built. I have literarily spent my entire life studying urban transit. I work in the field. I have followed nearly every modern transit system in the USA from Idea and implementation to expansion since the 1990's. I have a good idea what has a chance of being funded, what has a chance of ever getting off the drawing board etc. I'm just trying to get people to push toward things that will work and could actually be done in the next 20-30 years.

Metro KC, even if only the MO side, needs to sit down and make a regional plan without thinking county and city lines and crunch some hard numbers on what a transit system might look like and then figure out how to work around political lines. I'm telling you. Rail to KCI would be like number 50 in the real world even though it's like number one to the general public. The same general public that didn't want to replace KCI airport's terminal in a more timely manner.

Seeing Denvers RTD rail was a gamechanger for me (especially the suburban routes). Now I really don't know if there's a need here for regional rail. I still think if rail here won't get you downtown faster than the car will, absolutely nobody will use it. And then it will fail and we'll be in big trouble. Commute times are quick in KC and I don't see the use of it.

I think the streetcar in urban core has more practical use. People actually need it. I personally can't wait till it gets finished building down Main because it'll make my life a hell of alot easier. I'm sure for many others too. But if I was still back in JoCo? Then I'd take the car over a train that stops too much and is slow. I think the need is in more urban streetcar. I just don't know where and how much to put in.

That's my point with regional transit. There are only a couple of corridors where high level rail makes any sense at all, and they are not north of the river. If you do want to build rail in KC beyond the "urban tram" that is has now, you really need to think about corridors that might have a fighting chance of actually happening over the next 20 years.

Denver is in a totally different league now than KC as far as basic large city infrastructure and even they have a hard time getting people out of their cars. Denver is a city that is larger than KC now, has higher density, has much worse traffic, a large downtown that is home to all the stadiums and a university. Much of suburban Denver's office parks are along a nice straight line along 25. Denver has one of the busiest airports in the world and a very extensive regionally funded light rail, commuter rail and bus system. And Denver still doesn't have the ridership you would think it should have.

It would be great if KC had light rail down 70 to Blue Springs serving the stadiums etc, but I-70 in KC is still one of the most dated urban instates in the country. KCMO and Modot can barely keep up the infrastructure it has, especially in the KC area (StL is a little better).

I just think the city should concentrate on making urban KCMO the place to be again. Continue to get some density back in the city and not worry about rail to far flung locations especially KCI. KC did not build a light rail spine, it built an urban core tram. And not the kind of urban trams you see in European cities that run more in dedicated rights of way etc. The KC Streetcar will never be more than that (without a major rebuild) and there is nothing wrong with that. It's probably what KCMO needs most right now anyway.