Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

[normalthings]

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to do streetcar extensions in stages. Build segments and let development catch up along those lines. Once that happens, then add another segment or route. Give the concept time to bear fruit and show people how the City has benefited.

Economies of scale and time. Federal project management is costly. There are benefits to doing 10 or 20 miles at a time instead of 2-3

You can also badly mess up. Mixed traffic streetcars are not a good solution. You need dedicated funding and row.

I'm not saying 20 miles of streetcar at once necessarily. I'm just saying like a broader rail proposal will have some economies of scale

[AlkaliAxel]

I think a couple of you are just overcomplicating this

Lay out the whole “would be” map plan for KC streetcar network

Post-Main St extension, we might be able to put the whole network for a vote given the popularity and how used to the streetcars people will be at that point.

If it fails, it fails. Then we’d just go back to stages. But we might be able to really speed this up.

[FangKC]

A system can be overbuilt too fast. Then there are ridership problems on those segments. Developers can only do infill so fast. KC doesn't have numerous developers. If you build into neighborhoods with a lot of vacant parcels, before infill is done on the original segments, then there is a lack of development on the new lines. There aren't enough riders. People then say "look, they wasted money building too far out." Developers will focus on the high-travel segments and ignore the outskirts. We have plenty of under-utilized parcels along the Main St. line, and along 39th Street. In many of our neighborhoods, we will need to build dense residential from scratch to make any new line viable (Linwood).

[Anthony_Hugo98]

I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to do streetcar extensions in stages. Build segments and let development catch up along those lines. Once that happens, then add another segment or route. Give the concept time to bear fruit and show people how the City has benefited.

Economies of scale and time. Federal project management is costly. There are benefits to doing 10 or 20 miles at a time instead of 2-3

You can also badly mess up. Mixed traffic streetcars are not a good solution. You need dedicated funding and row.

If it counts for anything, even running mixed traffic, our streetcar still far and away is the best of our class (the early to mid 2010’s systems) and is competitive with some light rail systems nationwide for ridership per mile. Signal priority still needs better fine tuning, and we could stand to limit traffic along main a little more, but it can be argued that curb running in mixed traffic has been far more helpful than it has hurt us.

[AlkaliAxel]

A system can be overbuilt too fast. Then there are ridership problems on those segments. Developers can only do infill so fast. KC doesn't have numerous developers. If you build into neighborhoods with a lot of vacant parcels, before infill is done on the original segments, then there is a lack of development on the new lines. There aren't enough riders. People then say "look, they wasted money building too far out." Developers will focus on the high-travel segments and ignore the outskirts. We have plenty of under-utilized parcels along the Main St. line, and along 39th Street. In many of our neighborhoods, we will need to build dense residential from scratch to make any new line viable (Linwood).

Okay, I understand your logic here and I think you may be right. But if that’s the case, you’re also basically saying we need don’t need alot more streetcar (even though we’re constantly told we have a desperate need to get better transit)? Atleast at this point in time. And that what we have is satisfactory.

[FangKC]

Lack of a streetcar line doesn't mean lack of transit. Many potential lines already have buses running on them. Fixed-rail systems are often touted as a development tool in addition to transit. They spur more new, denser projects along their routes than buses might.

Even dense cities like central Prague run buses in addition to street trams and their subway.

My point is that we don't have an unlimited number of development firms here. They only have so much time to plan and build projects. If you are a developer and there is a vacant parcel at 43rd and Main, or Linwood and Olive, where do you devote resources? Which location pencils out better? Ideally, development of parcels along existing lines gets done before you add new segments.

[earthling]

Agree. Let development catch up with infill for first few lines (DT/UMKC/Riverfront/NKC) before expanding further. If you expand too many miles outside urban core too soon it would distract from infill TOD development in the core. An E/W downtown or midtown line would be OK but hold off for considerably more infill before expanding outside urban corridor. MAX lines are better solutions where there's not enough density anyway. Expand with more MAX (level boarding) and convert to streetcar over time if/when it makes sense. Create MAX stops that are just like level boarding streetcar stops that can make it an easier transition.

[AlkaliAxel]

Fair enough. What if we capitalized on a surge of post-Main extension popularity by putting up a vote for a line from the airport to downtown? I really think at this point in time the people would be open to vote for something big regarding transit.

And that doesn’t interfere with overbuilding in the urban core!

Why not try this then? Seems like it meets Fangs and everyone else’s concerns. And again, if it fails, it fails. Back to stages then.

[beautyfromashes]

Fair enough. What if we capitalized on a surge of post-Main extension popularity by putting up a vote for a line from the airport to downtown? I really think at this point in time the people would be open to vote for something big regarding transit.

And that doesn’t interfere with overbuilding in the urban core!

Why not try this then? Seems like it meets Fangs and everyone else’s concerns. And again, if it fails, it fails. Back to stages then.

First, it will take literally decades to redevelop just the lots along the Main St extension. I know people are super optimistic and looking for warp speed. "It has to happen now! What's there to stop it!?!" Development moves super slow. You're lucky to see neighborhoods revitalize in a lifetime, like we have.

Second, I admire you're passion to vote on something big. But, if a large vote like you're advocating is done too soon, has a bad campaign, all parties and groups aren't on the same page, even something like bad weather... it will fail. And if it fails, it will be a very long time before there is another vote. I think we've seen this with some of the previous transportation votes that didn't have enough steam. I think prudence wins the day here.

[DaveKCMO]

If things go really well and the Main St. extension is very popular, then why don't we go for the full blown $1 bil project that puts up streetcar lines all over the place instead of one at a time? If it fails, we just go back to the original plans. But why not try it?

a) It will be very popular (zero fare, frequent, level boarding)
b) there isn't enough revenue in the urban core to do what you're proposing

The only authorization that exists in KCMO is an additional 1/8-cent -- which doesn't raise enough to pay the capital match, let alone cover operations -- and there's no indication citywide voters would go for it.

Regional. Funding. Is. The. Key.

[AlkaliAxel]

So the airport to downtown (which isn’t a neighborhood or urban core development issue) should be in a different category then, right?

We’re not looking for it to develop (right?) we just want the ability to get from airport to the core. Why don’t we just try to pass that with a vote then, and continue the rest of the urban core in stages?

[CorneliusFB]

So the airport to downtown (which isn’t a neighborhood or urban core development issue) should be in a different category then, right?

We’re not looking for it to develop (right?) we just want the ability to get from airport to the core. Why don’t we just try to pass that with a vote then, and continue the rest of the urban core in stages?

Seriously, you and Clay Chastain need to meet up. What do you think about a gondola through Penn Vally Park?

[beautyfromashes]

Seriously, you and Clay Chastain need to meet up. What do you think about a gondola through Penn Vally Park?

There's a difference between youthful exuberance and stupidity.

[FangKC]

So the airport to downtown (which isn’t a neighborhood or urban core development issue) should be in a different category then, right?

We’re not looking for it to develop (right?) we just want the ability to get from airport to the core. Why don’t we just try to pass that with a vote then, and continue the rest of the urban core in stages?

If you don't expect TOD development along a route to the airport, there is no point in building it. Not having denser development along the route simply means you wouldn't be generating future revenue to pay for the route and maintenance.

[AlkaliAxel]

So the airport to downtown (which isn’t a neighborhood or urban core development issue) should be in a different category then, right?

We’re not looking for it to develop (right?) we just want the ability to get from airport to the core. Why don’t we just try to pass that with a vote then, and continue the rest of the urban core in stages?

Seriously, you and Clay Chastain need to meet up. What do you think about a gondola through Penn Vally Park?

None of the gondola ideas at this time look that appealing. What’s the need?

So, people complain everyday on here “we’re falling behind, we’re years behind ____ city now” but when the idea of speeding things up gets presented…now you go into the “oh no we were kidding about trying to catch up to Minnesota” mode?

I don’t see why you think it’s such a joke. Building a route from the airport to downtown is like a pretty common thought on here to happen at some point.

The point of all this is we need to move faster. We’re off a to a nice start, so let’s pick up the pace more now. If that’s a laughable idea to you then Rag probably isn’t fun.

[alejandro46]

I want more density, more neighbors, and more usable and more rail transit. I am realistic that many projects wouldn't even get completed for 25 years.

We need to take the right steps to lay the foundation for more usable transit in the future. We need a regional funding vote. The "build all the streetcars now" is a red herring that's getting lost in the idea that all 4/5 regional counties don't fund transit enough and we should try to change that. If the streetcar (or a future streetcar) get them to vote for it, I'm all for it.

[dukuboy1]

Rail system to the airport would be awesome. But a route from downtown to airport would really only serve conventioneers, & visitors to downtown based events. Yes there would be some business travelers but we all know one of downtown biggest issues is lack of major employer. Again a lot of employers downtown but no company with with 5000 or more located within downtown. Downtown residents are about 30k. To make it work you really need a system that provides access to airport for the suburbs as much as that pains people on here. Park & ride commuter stops in JOCO, Eastern suburbs & even a stop up North. So ppl could have an opportunity to ride a train to the airport

[AlkaliAxel]

Rail system to the airport would be awesome. But a route from downtown to airport would really only serve conventioneers, & visitors to downtown based events. Yes there would be some business travelers but we all know one of downtown biggest issues is lack of major employer. Again a lot of employers downtown but no company with with 5000 or more located within downtown. Downtown residents are about 30k. To make it work you really need a system that provides access to airport for the suburbs as much as that pains people on here. Park & ride commuter stops in JOCO, Eastern suburbs & even a stop up North. So ppl could have an opportunity to ride a train to the airport

Yes but you could also think of it in the sense that the streetcar unlocks the urban core to downtown. So a downtown rail line to the airport really is more like 300k people.

Just my take, but I think alot of the takes about this stuff are too cautious.

[GRID]

A streetcar to KCI is just stupid. End of discussion. I don't see the point of taking the streetcar any further than downtown NKC to the north and Brookside to the south.

Full blown light rail transit to KCI would likely be one of the biggest transit blunders in US history.

KCI Is not a busy airport and it likely never will be. It's like in the 40's as far as how busy it is. Is there an airport in the country beyond the top 20 or even the top ten, that have rail service? If they do, are they 20 miles from the city along a very lightly traveled interstate (by metropolitan standards) with very low density sprawl along it? Are they in a city with very limited local corporate business travel? I would bet anything that the vast majority of people that fly to KC for business don't even go downtown unless it's for a convention.

Even airports that have rail, it's incredible how few people choose to use it, at least in America. Denver, Baltimore, Atlanta, MSP, a TINY percent of the flyers use it. They are mostly used by airport employees and the trains are almost always nearly empty. And these are much busier airports connected to bigger downtowns and more robust regional transit systems. One exception might be DCA, but there are so many reasons why it works there vs just about any other airport in America.

Nothing about running rail to KCI makes an ounce of sense. Especially when corridors like 35 to Olathe and 70 to Blue Springs don't even have anything and they are MUCH better candidates for LRT despite having major issues of their own.

A decent bus service to KCI would cost a fraction of rail and be used by more people.

People in KC have got stop with this obsession with rail to the airport. And people need to stop thinking of expanding the streetcar beyond the central urban core. KC will only have 6 miles of streetcar line after the expansions so it needs to build more streetcar lines and better bus routes in the central urban core. It makes no sense to take the streetcar beyond the core. Especially a mixed traffic running tram. Let the urban core actually freaking urbanize...

[normalthings]

A streetcar to KCI is just stupid. End of discussion. I don't see the point of taking the streetcar any further than downtown NKC to the north and Brookside to the south.

Full blown light rail transit to KCI would likely be one of the biggest transit blunders in US history.

KCI Is not a busy airport and it likely never will be. It's like in the 40's as far as how busy it is. Is there an airport in the country beyond the top 20 or even the top ten, that have rail service? If they do, are they 20 miles from the city along a very lightly traveled interstate (by metropolitan standards) with very low density sprawl along it? Are they in a city with very limited local corporate business travel? I would bet anything that the vast majority of people that fly to KC for business don't even go downtown unless it's for a convention.

Even airports that have rail, it's incredible how few people choose to use it, at least in America. Denver, Baltimore, Atlanta, MSP, a TINY percent of the flyers use it. They are mostly used by airport employees and the trains are almost always nearly empty. And these are much busier airports connected to bigger downtowns and more robust regional transit systems. One exception might be DCA, but there are so many reasons why it works there vs just about any other airport in America.

Nothing about running rail to KCI makes an ounce of sense. Especially when corridors like 35 to Olathe and 70 to Blue Springs don't even have anything and they are MUCH better candidates for LRT despite having major issues of their own.

A decent bus service to KCI would cost a fraction of rail and be used by more people.

People in KC have got stop with this obsession with rail to the airport. And people need to stop thinking of expanding the streetcar beyond the central urban core. KC will only have 6 miles of streetcar line after the expansions so it needs to build more streetcar lines and better bus routes in the central urban core. It makes no sense to take the streetcar beyond the core. Especially a mixed traffic running tram. Let the urban core actually freaking urbanize...

the term "streetcar" is now used interchangeably with Commuter Rail and Light Rail in KC.