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P&L district, Cordish, Retail discussion (from 14th/Main thread)
- Midtownkid
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Re: P&L district, Cordish, Retail discussion (from 14th/Main thread)
Maybe you are right, but we can hope can't we! Can't we all just get along! It's spring! ![Laughing :lol:](./images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
![Laughing :lol:](./images/smilies/icon_lol.gif)
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Re: P&L district, Cordish, Retail discussion (from 14th/Main thread)
Mark Shale's old multi-level space on the Plaza has been closed for years. It's physically done. Stop any TIF for Highwoods until the 25,000 sq. feet of Mark Shale space is filled. It's the taxpayer's responsibility.LenexatoKCMO wrote: Its been physically done for about a year. The fact that it hasn't since been "done" by locating tennants in it is precisely the problem.
You're not a retail planner or developer, but it sounds like you have all the answers and know the "window has passed" on the opportunity.LenexatoKCMO wrote: I am not a retail planner. I am not a developer. I am just a taxpayer that is going to have to foot the bill for this failure.
Hey its all well and good to say that it should be filled with high class, appropriate tennants that will further the DT neighborhood and what not - I agree - but the window of opportunity has passed and the developer failed to do that and shows zero sign of being able to fix that. It is nigh past time for fingers to start pointing - god knows Cordish is plenty used to doing the pointing, they ought to be able to handle being on the receiving end.
As a taxpayer, are you concerned about the Citadel Plaza plan? How about 18th and Vine? Are you worried about the zoo subsidies also? Didn't notice any comments from you about that and it's probably a much greater risk to the city than an empty block of retail that was filled with parking before. As a taxpayer are you concerned about building the tax base downtown by making it more vibrant?
Last edited by trailerkid on Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: P&L district, Cordish, Retail discussion (from 14th/Main thread)
In summary, there is more to KCMO than downtown. And those other areas also need services and capital repairs and improvements much like downtown. And the revenue shortfalls from the P&L, and other developments downtown and throughout the city, do have a negative effect on those areas as well as downtown.trailerkid wrote: Should we invest funds downtown to increase economic advantages in terms of business growth and tourism? No...downtown doens't deserve invest so let's worry about steel plates and sidewalks in Brookside.
It may be a bit extreme but try this comparison. A man has a family that is deep in debt with many needs. He wins a $40,000 (after taxes) jackpot at the casino. Now, he could greatly reduce his debt and provide his family with needed new clothes and some basic home repairs. Instead he goes out and buys a $50,000 new car and adds to the family's debt. He needed a car but did he have to spend that much, and get a new one?
Maybe the city and Cordish took on more than they should with this projectat the start. Maybe more of the retail should have been delayed until phase II. Instead of all of this retail maybe some funds should have been spent in the residential. Choices or decisions are made all of the time. Some are with good results, some with bad. And some start with bad results that later become good. But how long can the city afford to live with these bad results and will they ever become good?
No matter what this vacant space is leaving a big hole in the city's budget and is draining resources needed "now" for services and capital repairs and maintenance. And that big hole will be with this city for many years to come.
I may be right. I may be wrong. But there is a lot of gray area in-between.
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Re: P&L district, Cordish, Retail discussion (from 14th/Main thread)
There wouldn't be a KC without downtown. Downtown is the heart, soul, and brains of this city and could generate revenue for each and every neighborhood and then some. Because it was destroyed and then let rot by your generation it will take billions of dollars to rebuild it. DEAL WITH IT.aknowledgeableperson wrote: In summary, there is more to KCMO than downtown.
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Re: P&L district, Cordish, Retail discussion (from 14th/Main thread)
I'll buy that if you add that the new $50,000 wasn't just a waste but it helped him get a better job or a better reputation or something along those lines. All we did was complain about was our shitty downtown (pre P+L) now all we can complain about is how much it cost to fix it and how it's not perfect.aknowledgeableperson wrote: It may be a bit extreme but try this comparison. A man has a family that is deep in debt with many needs. He wins a $40,000 (after taxes) jackpot at the casino. Now, he could greatly reduce his debt and provide his family with needed new clothes and some basic home repairs. Instead he goes out and buys a $50,000 new car and adds to the family's debt. He needed a car but did he have to spend that much, and get a new one?
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Re: P&L district, Cordish, Retail discussion (from 14th/Main thread)
If that is the case then how did this city survive for these past 30 to 40 years? Along with a big growth in revenues and a somewhat bigger growth in expenses. I am surprised that Crown Center and the Plaza haven't been boarded up by now, along with some other areas of the city. I wonder why KC North isn't still farmland in many areas. The city sufferred through economic downtowns in the past. But what makes the suffering so much bigger and different is the funds taken from operations to make up for shortfalls in TIF and Super TIF projects, something that has affected the city on such a large scale.trailerkid wrote: Downtown is the heart, soul, and brains of this city
I may be right. I may be wrong. But there is a lot of gray area in-between.
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Re: P&L district, Cordish, Retail discussion (from 14th/Main thread)
That has to be some of the most convoluted logic I have ever seen. But just to play along - Highwoods at least has a history of success on the plaza and prior to the last couple months gave little reason to support the idea that they couldn't consistently pull in retail and keep their overall vacancy low. Cordish has basically done nothing to suggest they can ever pull retail off in the P&L, under any circumstance.trailerkid wrote: Mark Shale's old multi-level space on the Plaza has been closed for years. It's physically done. Stop any TIF for Highwoods until the 25,000 sq. feet of Mark Shale space is filled. It's the taxpayer's responsibility.
Absolutelytrailerkid wrote: As a taxpayer, are you concerned about the Citadel Plaza plan?
You betcha - though that ship sailed ages ago so I am not sure how it is all that relevant to Cordish shitting the bed today.trailerkid wrote: How about 18th and Vine?
worried about it how? Its a give away. What unknown risk does an intended give away pose to the city? But for the record, if you went back through the thread on that subject, you would see that I did comment quite a bit about it.trailerkid wrote: Are you worried about the zoo subsidies also? Didn't notice any comments from you about that and it's probably a much greater risk to the city than an empty block of retail that was filled with parking before.
Absolutely - but vacant store fronts do not = vibrance.trailerkid wrote: As a taxpayer are you concerned about building the tax base downtown by making it more vibrant?
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Re: P&L district, Cordish, Retail discussion (from 14th/Main thread)
Lenexa, I just think you are being a bit hyper-critical on this matter. And as this thread has gone on, you have gotten angrier, more critical, and more accusatory.
Look, I share your concern about the retail block. Taxpayers didn't fork over money for the block to sit empty forever. Nobody is disputing this. What people are disputing is your hatred for Cordish.
In my mind, there are two issues at play here. (1) Cordish lying to us; (2) Cordish not delivering to us. I see these two things are two entirely seperate and independent issues.
(1) Cordish lied to us. They told us that they could deliver. They haven't. I can see why people may be upset about this.
(2) Cordish has not deliver the stores. I'm not upset about this. I know as well as anybody that DTKC is a tough sell at this point. Even before the economic collapse, DTKC was a tough sell. Residential numbers simply aren't favorable at this point. Hence, I give Cordish the benefit of the doubt. I mean, just because Cordish says something doesn't make it so.
If your financial planner promises you that he will increase the worth of your portfolio 1000% in 1 year, are you upset when it doesn't happen? Yeah, you may be pissed that he was so arrogant in his projection, but can you really be upset that he didn't grow your portfolio 1000%?
My only point is that Cordish has not screwed this City. There was no evil intent. Cordish does NOT benefit by leaving that retail block vacant. Cordish is a victim of a bad retail market as much as any other developer is a victim. Times are tough. Cut them some slack. Through this horrible economy, the Live! Block is doing well and the restuarants appear to be doing well also. P&L is successful to this point, IMO.
Look, I share your concern about the retail block. Taxpayers didn't fork over money for the block to sit empty forever. Nobody is disputing this. What people are disputing is your hatred for Cordish.
In my mind, there are two issues at play here. (1) Cordish lying to us; (2) Cordish not delivering to us. I see these two things are two entirely seperate and independent issues.
(1) Cordish lied to us. They told us that they could deliver. They haven't. I can see why people may be upset about this.
(2) Cordish has not deliver the stores. I'm not upset about this. I know as well as anybody that DTKC is a tough sell at this point. Even before the economic collapse, DTKC was a tough sell. Residential numbers simply aren't favorable at this point. Hence, I give Cordish the benefit of the doubt. I mean, just because Cordish says something doesn't make it so.
If your financial planner promises you that he will increase the worth of your portfolio 1000% in 1 year, are you upset when it doesn't happen? Yeah, you may be pissed that he was so arrogant in his projection, but can you really be upset that he didn't grow your portfolio 1000%?
My only point is that Cordish has not screwed this City. There was no evil intent. Cordish does NOT benefit by leaving that retail block vacant. Cordish is a victim of a bad retail market as much as any other developer is a victim. Times are tough. Cut them some slack. Through this horrible economy, the Live! Block is doing well and the restuarants appear to be doing well also. P&L is successful to this point, IMO.
- KCPowercat
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Re: P&L district, Cordish, Retail discussion (from 14th/Main thread)
This city sprawled and died in many of our opinions....when some on this board worked closely with the city in that time and oversaw it's demise.aknowledgeableperson wrote: If that is the case then how did this city survive for these past 30 to 40 years? Along with a big growth in revenues and a somewhat bigger growth in expenses. I am surprised that Crown Center and the Plaza haven't been boarded up by now, along with some other areas of the city. I wonder why KC North isn't still farmland in many areas. The city sufferred through economic downtowns in the past. But what makes the suffering so much bigger and different is the funds taken from operations to make up for shortfalls in TIF and Super TIF projects, something that has affected the city on such a large scale.
No doubt all areas need to be served basic needs...but you can't argue that you get your biggest ROI repaving a downtown street that residents, employees, conventioneers, tourists, and business owners use vs. repaying your neighborhood stree.
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Re: P&L district, Cordish, Retail discussion (from 14th/Main thread)
trailerkid wrote: There wouldn't be a KC without downtown. Downtown is the heart, soul, and brains of this city and could generate revenue for each and every neighborhood and then some. Because it was destroyed and then let rot by your generation it will take billions of dollars to rebuild it. DEAL WITH IT.
Downtown should be heart and soul of all the civic and institutional elements of the city. Downtown cannot be everything to everyone, but it has to be to the hub of our civic activities.
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Re: P&L district, Cordish, Retail discussion (from 14th/Main thread)
This brings two points.KCPowercat wrote: No doubt all areas need to be served basic needs...but you can't argue that you get your biggest ROI repaving a downtown street that residents, employees, conventioneers, tourists, and business owners use vs. repaying your neighborhood stree.
One, of course the return may be higher but at the same time the i (investment) is greater.
Two, there are investments and there are investments. Has the city made investments in the right things downtown? Go back 20 years, do you put $10,000 into Microsoft or into Montgomery Ward?
I may be right. I may be wrong. But there is a lot of gray area in-between.
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Re: P&L district, Cordish, Retail discussion (from 14th/Main thread)
You could have just posted random characters, that would have made as much of a point as this post...in other words...WTF are you even saying?aknowledgeableperson wrote: This brings two points.
One, of course the return may be higher but at the same time the i (investment) is greater.
Two, there are investments and there are investments. Has the city made investments in the right things downtown? Go back 20 years, do you put $10,000 into Microsoft or into Montgomery Ward?
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Re: P&L district, Cordish, Retail discussion (from 14th/Main thread)
You seem to argue that investments downtown are great and all-powerful, no matter what is invested in and how much is spent. Great, you live downtown and have a vested interest in what happens there. However, there is more to this city than downtown and there are those who live in KCMO but not downtown who don't happen to have that viewpoint.
Those that seem to argue about how great downtown areas, KC's in particular, seem to be like those who believed that the Sun and the universe rotated around Earth.
Those that seem to argue about how great downtown areas, KC's in particular, seem to be like those who believed that the Sun and the universe rotated around Earth.
I may be right. I may be wrong. But there is a lot of gray area in-between.
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Re: P&L district, Cordish, Retail discussion (from 14th/Main thread)
You're putting words in my mouth. Never once did I state that any and all investments should happen. That's the misunderstanding that happens in your own brain (and a lot of other KCMO rubes) whenever they hear about an investment downtown. It is not an all or nothing game and people don't support everything all the time just because it's downtown. However, it is dangerous to have hayseeds like you in this city that don't understand moderation and think downtown needs to be shut down in order to save some fucking sidewalk in their white neighborhood.aknowledgeableperson wrote: You seem to argue that investments downtown are great and all-powerful, no matter what is invested in and how much is spent. Great, you live downtown and have a vested interest in what happens there. However, there is more to this city than downtown and there are those who live in KCMO but not downtown who don't happen to have that viewpoint.
Those that seem to argue about how great downtown areas, KC's in particular, seem to be like those who believed that the Sun and the universe rotated around Earth.
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Re: P&L district, Cordish, Retail discussion (from 14th/Main thread)
Wasn't answering you, it was KCP.
I may be right. I may be wrong. But there is a lot of gray area in-between.
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Re: P&L district, Cordish, Retail discussion (from 14th/Main thread)
Now you resort to namecalling. So am I to drop down to your gradeschool, playground level? And you seem to misunderstand me. I am not attacking "all" downtown redevelopment and I live in a mixed neighborhood by the way. You are wrong on many accounts.trailerkid wrote: However, it is dangerous to have hayseeds like you in this city that don't understand moderation and think downtown needs to be shut down in order to save some fucking sidewalk in their white neighborhood.
I may be right. I may be wrong. But there is a lot of gray area in-between.
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Re: P&L district, Cordish, Retail discussion (from 14th/Main thread)
wrong assumptionaknowledgeableperson wrote: You seem to argue that investments downtown are great and all-powerful, no matter what is invested in and how much is spent.
I would argue all KCMo residents and even KC metro residents have a vested interest in what happens downtown. It has been shown in studies of other cities that how downtown goes, so goes the entire metro area. With multiple one of a kind attractions & city services downtown, we all have a vested interest in what happens downtown...which is the reason you like your quiet suburban street..we don't all go down there for business, pleasure, and services.Great, you live downtown and have a vested interest in what happens there.
Nice work, can't make your point, disrespect those who don't share it.Those that seem to argue about how great downtown areas, KC's in particular, seem to be like those who believed that the Sun and the universe rotated around Earth.
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Re: P&L district, Cordish, Retail discussion (from 14th/Main thread)
You do the same thing and then call him out on it?aknowledgeableperson wrote: Now you resort to namecalling. So am I to drop down to your gradeschool, playground level? And you seem to misunderstand me. I am not attacking "all" downtown redevelopment and I live in a mixed neighborhood by the way. You are wrong on many accounts.
You get crazy responses because you don't articulate your point well...nobody knows what you are trying to say....vague points saying things like "there are investments and then there are investments" makes no sense.
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Re: P&L district, Cordish, Retail discussion (from 14th/Main thread)
I didn't call him a name (implied, maybe, but not said), just described his level to the argument (gradeschool, playground). If that is a name then I guess adjectives (how the words were used) are now nouns.KCPowercat wrote: You do the same thing and then call him out on it?
You get crazy responses because you don't articulate your point well...nobody knows what you are trying to say....vague points saying things like "there are investments and then there are investments" makes no sense.
"there are investments and then there are investments" makes much sense to me and many I converse with. Growing up there were sayings like "there are girlfriends and then there are girlfriends" meaning not all girlfriends are alike. Or like when someone calls in sick and talking about it one could say "there sickness and then there is sickness" which could mean one has the flu or one has a hangover. Or like at a car show "there are '57 Chevys and then are '57 Chevys" which could mean there are normal or other '57 Chevy's and then there is one like the one in front of us that is very unique or has some other distinction. So, with regards to investments there are investments that really make an improvement to downtown and then there is just money spent that maybe should have been spent on something else that may be better or needed more.
I may be right. I may be wrong. But there is a lot of gray area in-between.
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Re: P&L district, Cordish, Retail discussion (from 14th/Main thread)
Again. No point made. Keep talking down to people on their opinions though (sun revolves around the earth). Sad.