Quality Hill: Carlton Tower and Carriage House Apartments

FangKC · Post by **FangKC** » Sat Jul 26, 2003 10:39 pm

Is anyone aware of what is happening to Carlton Tower and Carriage House apartments at 10th and Jefferson on Quality Hill?

Tonight, while taking a walk, I noticed that Carlton Tower is closed, and all the residents have been cleared out. I walked around the corner to the Carriage House entrance on E. 10th, and encountered one of the residents still in that building. I inquired what was going on, and he told me that all the residents had been evicted. He indicated both buildings were slated for demolition.

He told me the last residents' leases were up October 1, 2003. Any remaining tenants would have to move, or the landlord would go to court to evict them.

The resident didn't know what was going to be built on the land though. There are some trailers across the street from Carlton Tower on a vacant lot behind a fence. I assume they are there as part of the demolition effort.

I haven't seen anything in the media about this situation, and didn't come across any posts here about it.

I don't know if new apartment buildings are going to be constructed or not. The tenant told me he'd heard a rumor that some business was building there. It would be a shame to lose all those units of downtown housing if it is true.

You would think with Mayor Barnes' attempts to try and increase the number of housing units downtown, that this would not be in the City's interest.

However, if new apartment buildings are being contructed there; that would be cool. Especially if it increased the number of residents on that block. One can easily see the advantages of building newer-- and higher-density--apartment buildings on that location because the views there are ideal.

I'm interested to hear any news on this topic.

kcteen · Post by **kcteen** » Sat Jul 26, 2003 11:52 pm

God that's weird. I don't think there has been any talk of the sort on the board that I can recall. There are a lot of peeps here from QH though...perhaps someone who lives there knows something?

It would indeed be a shame to lose housing! talk about moving backwards...

KcTeen

KCN · Post by **KCN** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 1:00 am

Yeah I'm very interested in why they're being demolished. Keep us posted.

KCDevin · Post by **KCDevin** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 8:01 am

dang that sucks, i'd like to know what would go there. Cause if it would be smaller that would really be bull because it makes no since to destroy a bigger building and construct a smaller one. Maybe one will be a parking garage for the commercial building?

KCgridlock · Post by **KCgridlock** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 9:55 am

Well, I belive DST bought those two buildings about 6 months ago. The article stated the sites were going to be office buildings, but I did not know how fast they were going to do it. This is rather surprising. DST has not even built on the old convention hotel site yet. They demolished that building over a year ago (that building needed to come down though).

I'm all for what DST is doing with the westside of Downtown and I don't know what kind of shape these buildings are in or the types of tennants that occupy them, but I wish DST would buy parking lots and prep those for new constructions rather than displacing hundreds of Downtown residents and lowering Downtown's density.

Could you give more info on these buildings, are they is very bad shape, are they section 8 etc?

Let's keep the topic going.

Post by **dangerboy** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 10:36 am

I looked at them about 5 years ago and at that time they were pretty nasty. Poorly maintained common areas, stained carpet in the apartments, etc. However, they comprise a big chunk of the dwindling supply of affordable housing inside the loop, so it will be a big loss for that market.

monkeypurple · Post by **monkeypurple** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 3:57 pm

funny that this thread just started yesterday. today my wife and I decided to drive by the old place. we each had 1 bedroom units at 1020 jeff. I noticed about a dozen window screens on the ground (and more falling as I got out and walked around, eek!) and a notice that the building was to vacate by 7/15.

we both lived there for 5 years and moved into a home in '98. our rents started @ 270/month and ended at 310 by the time we moved out. Sure they weren't soho, but the low rent, 3 utils (phone, elec, cableTV) it was easy to sock away a bunch of dough into savings.

I'd like to know more about what/when. I may even show up with camcorder on the day of the wrecking ball. If anyone else lived there, please reply.

KCDowntown · Post by **KCDowntown** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 5:51 pm

I used to have a friend who lived in Carlton Towers. Anyhow, her apartment was broken into a couple of times. The apartments had some kind of small 'grocery' door or something like that and people would break in using it.

The place was pretty scary in my opinion.

I think it was rent controlled , and GENERALLY, the landlords skimp on maintainence in these buildings.

KCDowntown

KCgridlock · Post by **KCgridlock** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 6:55 pm

How tall are these structures?, if I remember right, they are between 8-10 stories.

There is a lot of well maintained low income housing entering the Downtown market. So we should not have to keep these buildings if they are falling apart. But what about fixing the buildings up? Can they be saved and used for moderate priced housing or even condos?

I just hate to see downtown loose "any" buildings, especially when they might become parking lots for who knows how long.

KCDevin · Post by **KCDevin** » Sun Jul 27, 2003 7:58 pm

http://www.skyscraperpage.com/cities/?buildingID=10139
http://www.skyscraperpage.com/cities/?buildingID=10140

FangKC · Post by **FangKC** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:10 am

I looked at one of the apartments in Carriage House about a year-and-a-half ago when I moved to Kansas City. They were quite run-down; however, they certainly could have been renovated. The apartments are also very small, but they could have been combined into larger units.

I chose not to live there because of the poor condition of the place, and because the one-bedrooms were too small for my taste. The views, however, were lovely. Both buildings are 11-stories.

The sadder story here is that those apartments, however dowdy, provided cheap housing for low-income people. The guy I talked with has no other place to go, and can't afford another similar apartment. He said the same was true for a lot of other residents being displaced.

Whatever DST builds there, let's hope that the City gets some money out of DST to clean up the stone overlook buildings at the end of E. 10th Street. The roofs are in bad shape, and the graffiti and broken glass needs to be cleaned up. It would also be great if they could cut down some of the trees and brush on the hillside below the terrace buildings. It is shameful that the City has let that area deteriorate.

Let me correct something I said in the first post, Carlton House is not completely vacant yet. There are couple of people still living there who haven't been evicted. I saw lights on and heard a TV blaring from one apartment this evening (Sunday). I assume they have leases that haven't expired yet; or DST is taking them to court to evict them. There is a sign on the door that says residents must vacate by July 15. I guess there are a couple of holdouts.

Those buildings were constructed around the same time as those across and down the street north on Jefferson, Quality Hill Towers. They are very similar in size and layout--all 11-stories. The difference being that Quality Hill Towers are in much better condition, and have been better maintained. I think those apartments have been renovated at some point. Despite this, they still have dated kitchens without dishwashers and garbage disposals.

Because Carlton Tower and Carriage House are so similar to Quality Hill Towers, they could have been renovated I'm sure. I hate to see them lost to office development--since there are so many vacant lots downtown already. There are still vacant parcels on Quality Hill that haven't been redeveloped.

I would wager this doesn't bode well for the apartment building at 910 Pennsylvania--another home to a lot of low-income people. It is also quite run-down.

Quality Hill is mostly a residential neighborhood; it is really the only one near downtown--other than the Columbus Park area. The River Market is somewhat residential, but doesn't yet have the density of apartment dwellers that Quality Hill does. The River Market doesn't have the cohesive feeling of a neighborhood. There are still large expanses of vacant lots there, and some infilling needs to be done before it reaches that feeling of a true neighborhood.

It would appear that DST has plenty of other places available to construct office buildings in the downtown loop. It's sad that they feel the need to tear down existing housing to clear land for office buildings.

I'm all in favor of new office buildings and the employees they bring to downtown. However, I'd rather see it done on vacant lots south of 12th Street, and east of Locust Street, or in the River Market.

There are also large vacant areas north of 9th Street and Wyandotte that currently are filled with parking lots. I believe Tower Properties (Commerce Bank) owns those lots though. I recall seeing something about their plans to construct some low-rise office buildings in that area some time in the future. When, is anyone's guess.

I wish Tower Properties would consider structures with apartments on top of any commercial or parking garages. Why not create a mini-Plaza type district there with brick structures that fit in with the adjoining neighborhood?

DST and New Quality Hill Apartments Inc. did bring a lot of new, and renovated, housing stock back to Quality Hill. However, I would like to see higher-density apartment buildings constructed on the remaining vacant lots in the neighborhood. It is vital to bring large numbers of residents into these few remaining tracts of land. This is an urban neighborhood afterall.

Before blight befell Quality Hill, it actually had a higher density of residents than it does now. Many of the apartment buildings were torn down to build Southwest Trafficway and the Crosstown Freeway, Bartle Hall, the new Missouri Southern headquarters, Argus headquarters, the former American Hereford Building, the State Street Buildings, and the 1220 Washington Building, etc. Many of the Victorian era buildings were lost--along with their charm.

There are a lot of open lots still available southwest of 12th Street and Washington. The smartest use of that remaining area would be to close Jefferson Street south of 12th Street and build larger apartment towers (10-15 stories) atop one huge underground parking garage with landscaped common areas--and a pool--on the rooftop of the parking structure.

Apartments in a taller structure would have great views of downtown, the West Bottoms, and the river--and the views would be an attractive option. Such a large parcel would allow townhouses that would face the street (similar to New Quality Hill) to be built around the base of the parking structure and apartment towers.

Having the parking structure ringed by townhouses would bring scale to the adjoining streets and conceal the parking garage. It would also make that area more pedestrian-oriented.

Four large towers could house up to 100-150 apartments each for a total 400-600 new apartments in that area. Having them placed on top of a large parking structure would lift them high enough that almost all the apartments would have a view.

An additional 20 townhouses ringing the base of the garage and apartment towers would increase the total to around 420-620 residences. That would make a big impact on increasing the population of the neighborhood. It would also increase the likelihood that a grocery store could be lured downtown.

It is not usual in New York City to build apartment towers on the top of parking garages (I lived in NYC for 10 years). It also reduces the cost of constructing parking spaces. Developers can then make more profit on the parcel of land rather than just having a solitary garage structure there; One that sit empty for hours each day producing no income.

I can't believe all these developers of parking garages don't see this potential to increase the income produced from a parcel of land.

JBinKC · Post by **JBinKC** » Mon Jul 28, 2003 8:30 pm

Quality Hill has always felt like a different city to me. Philadelphia or SF. It guess its all the brick and townhouses or the remnants of KC's earliest upscale neighborhoods (wasn't Chouteau's house on that hill???). Anyway, it seems that tearing down these two buildings, in terms of development, isn't the worst part of this deal. The fact that this will become office space instead of new and improved housing is the unfortunate part. This is a great opportunity to extend the only true urban neighborhood we have. Build more brick townhouses, or maybe some SF style row houses up on the hill. Even 2 more 11 story buildings in their place. The views would be awesome, as I'm sure they already are. The brick towers there add a nice balance to the skyline if nothing else. I hope DST considers all this when rebuilding this space.

KCDevin · Post by **KCDevin** » Tue Jul 29, 2003 12:50 am

who is it that owns the properties? i hope it isnt DST cause they dont build tall

(i read that in an article somewhere on the internet about the KC reactions to 9/11 and stuff)

FangKC · Post by **FangKC** » Tue Jul 29, 2003 2:02 am

I don't think Francois Chouteau's house was on Quality Hill. I think both he and his brother, Cyprien, lived in what is now the River Market.

Cyprien Chouteau's house was at 412 Charlotte. Cyprien's daughter lived there until 1942. That house was originally built in 1845 by John Calvin McCoy. It was torn down in 1946, and the Heart of America Produce Company had a warehouse on that site up until 1989. I don't know if that warehouse is still there or not. I'd have to take a look. My source is "Kansas City Style," by Dory DeAngelo, Jane Fifield Flynn.

It's a shame that in 1946 no one tried to preserve that McCoy/Chouteau house. It's a miracle it survived as long as it did. It would have been nice to have saved a home that housed two of the City's earliest prominent settlers, John McCoy and Cyprien Chouteau.

Quality Hill I think was part of the original Chouteau farm though. The first church in Kansas City, St. Mary's Church, was built on Chouteau land. It is now the location of the Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception. It was originally called "Chouteau's Church."

I haven't been able to find out where Francois Chouteau's house was, but I assume it was in the River Market as well. If anyone knows, or I am wrong about this, please post the answer.

It is certainly possible that some of Chouteau's descendants lived on Quality Hill though. I do recall reading that Sacajawea's son, Jean Baptiste Charbonneau, lived on Quality Hill.

Col. Kersey Coates had his family mansion on Quality Hill at 10th and Pennsylvania. I don't know what corner or block it was on though. It, too, should have been saved. But alas.

Francois and Cyprien Chouteau's grandfather was Pierre LaClede, founder of St. Louis. Their grandmother, Marie, was married to Rene Auguste Chouteau, who left her in New Orleans when he returned to France.

Marie Chouteau then "shacked" up with Pierre LaClede in New Orleans; and they later moved to what would become St. Louis. Laclede was Francois and Cyprien's biological grandfather. Since Marie Chouteau (their grandmother) was barred by law from remarrying, the four children she had with Laclede were given the surname of Chouteau.

Yes, Quality Hill is quite different from other parts of Kansas City. Your comparison to San Francisco agrees with my own first impressions of the neighborhood. I think one concludes this because of the townhouses and the hilly terrain of the area.

Another past comparison to San Francisco would be when cable cars plied the streets of downtown. It's too bad KC didn't have the foresight to save some of those cable cars.

When I'm on my walks around the neighborhood, I sometimes try to imagine the sights and sounds of those cable cars passing some of the remaining buildings from that era.

Kansas City was one of the first three cities in the US to have an extensive cable car system. At it's peak, Kansas City had the third largest cable car system in the US--after San Francisco and Chicago.

By the 1890s, cable cars were in operation in 50 American municipalities. Kansas City's cable railway had 38 miles of track, and was larger than those in New York, St. Louis, and Denver.

Kansas City chose the cable car for many of the same reasons San Francisco had--the hilly terrain. Before the cable cars were employed, streetcars were pulled by horses or mules. However, it was slow-going up the steep hills. Cable cars moved twice as fast (9-11 mph) as horse-drawn streetcars, and could climb steep grades that were difficult or impossible for horses.

Cable cars were a third less expensive per mile to operate than horse-drawn; and they left the streets far cleaner than horses.

The cable cars began service in 1885. Robert Gillham operated the business. We all know him as the person after whom Gillham Road was named. The last horse-drawn cart ended service in 1897.

Gillham's first line was the infamous 9th Street Incline which was built on a raised trestles from the old Union Station in the West Bottom--to the crest of Quality Hill bluffs--and down 9th Street to Main.

He also constructed a second line along the 12th Street viaduct. In 1878, Gillham built another line from the West Bottoms using a 786-foot tunnel through the bluff that emerged on E. 8th Street at Washington, and ended on Delaware Street (Main). That tunnel entrance is now covered by a pedestrian plaza in front of the SoHo West Lofts.

The first successful electric streetcar line in the US--started in 1887--was in our little sister to the north, St. Joseph, Mo.

By 1889, Kansas City operated its first electric streetcar line in the West Bottoms from the Stockyards to Armourdale. By 1906, all streetcars were switched to electricity; except for one cable line up the 12th Street viaduct. Electric streetcars couldn't be used on that grade because it was too steep for the wheels to get any traction--a 20 percent grade. The last cable car in Kansas City stopped operation in late 1913.

The last electric streetcar stopped running in 1957. The last electric trolley bus ended service in 1959.

By the way, does anyone know what happened to the old cable car that was located inside the old Washington Street Station restaurant that was located on the corner of 9th and Washington streets? That building was torn down and I always wondered what happened to that car.

Yes, I also wish that more housing would be constructed in the remaining vacant parcels of land on Quality Hill.

There should be a second wave of development done as they did with the New Quality Hill Development in the early 1990s.

Brooksider · Post by **Brooksider** » Tue Jul 29, 2003 9:53 am

During construction of State Street the opening of the 9th street tunnel to the bottoms was excavated and opened up. I took photos on one of my many walks of the neighborhood. It was a huge tunnel with a large beautiful stone arch at the entrance. Too bad it's now underneath a parking structure. Noone will ever be able to see it again.

carfreekc · Post by **carfreekc** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 8:58 pm

Brooksider wrote:During construction of State Street the opening of the 9th street tunnel to the bottoms was excavated and opened up. I took photos on one of my many walks of the neighborhood. It was a huge tunnel with a large beautiful stone arch at the entrance. Too bad it's now underneath a parking structure. Noone will ever be able to see it again.

Ohhhh, Brooksider, I would love to see those photos. Have you posted them anywhere?

kcteen · Post by **kcteen** » Wed Jul 30, 2003 9:12 pm

me too! I'd love to see those photos. Was it the 8th street tunnel or the 9th? I seem to remember it being called the 8th street but i'm probably wrong. They have many cool photos of it in the kc library archives during the trolley days..and also in the "a Splendid Ride" book

KcTeen

FangKC · Post by **FangKC** » Fri Oct 24, 2003 4:34 pm

Both Carriage House and Carlton Tower are now empty. Barricades have gone up around Carriage House. It appears demolition will happen soon.

GRID · Post by **GRID** » Fri Oct 24, 2003 10:08 pm

Why? I hate loosing buildings, even old, ugly, boring boxes. There are so many surface lots that are crying for help.

FangKC · Post by **FangKC** » Fri Oct 24, 2003 10:27 pm

DST is supposed to be constructing office buildings (eventually) on that site once the apartment buildings are demolished.

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