Generic ongoing KCATA thread

[GRID]

^ I knew somebody would say that. I'm not talking about rush hour commuter routes. Those will never do well in KC because downtown is not a huge job center anymore and KC lacks traffic congestion and parking issues.

I'm talking about just normal fixed route bus routes. Routes that would serve the suburbs the same way they serve the city. Routes down US-40, Blue Ridge, Indep Ave, or streets like that in other MO and KS suburbs. Not to mention that 80-90% of KCMO itself is suburban.

You need those routes if you want any sort of regional funding at the county or state level too even though most of the transit funding would likely go to the center city.

And it's not the transit system's problem to deal with the homeless. Two different issues. I use transit every day in a much bigger and busier transit system and pretty much never see homeless people on trains, buses or in stations etc.

You are correct. The homeless/mental crisis in America is not just an urban problem. But again, different issue and the people in the suburbs that are against taking care of these people are the same people that would vote against funding transit anyway.

[beautyfromashes]

How long have we been talking about regional funding of transportation in this city. It seems self-harming to even bring it up. There is just not the political will or demand for it. Take the funds and expand your individual RideKC service or subsidize other forms of transportation. Bus service just doesn't make for a better urban core. I'm absolutely not against it, it just feels like we're spending a significant amount of money that could go to other needs.

[herrfrank]

Could the city have a means-tested monthly stipend for rideshare users within city limits? How much would that actually cost?

Perhaps people who qualify for such a stipend but don't use (WFH, retired, shut-ins) could even donate their unused money toward those who need a daily ride.

[SilentSpades24]

How long have we been talking about regional funding of transportation in this city. It seems self-harming to even bring it up. There is just not the political will or demand for it. Take the funds and expand your individual RideKC service or subsidize other forms of transportation. Bus service just doesn't make for a better urban core. I'm absolutely not against it, it just feels like we're spending a significant amount of money that could go to other needs.

That's the problem. There's always talk, yet at no point has there been anything close to serious proposal to brought to a vote that I can remember. There was an attempt previously recently but that seemed to sputter out when Makkinen was sacked (I'm sure Dave can clarify that).

Hell, even getting County level funding would improve things, but to get that, there will need to be routes to major centers out in the suburbs (not piddly commuter routes either). County level funding already exists in KC. Johnson County and KCK fund transit at the County level. It's the Missouri side where it's non existent.

[KCPowercat]

Here is the dashboard you can see ridership by route.
https://ridekc.org/assets/uploads/docum ... Report.pdf

[SilentSpades24]

Here is the dashboard you can see ridership by route.
https://ridekc.org/assets/uploads/docum ... Report.pdf

https://ridekc.org/planning/dashboard

There is the live dashboard. For reference.

[beautyfromashes]

Here is the dashboard you can see ridership by route.
https://ridekc.org/assets/uploads/docum ... Report.pdf

So, we had 100 trips on the Lees Summit Express for the month at over $11 cost/trip? That’s like 5 guys commuting back and forth to work for the month. Buy one of them a car, have them carpool and save the money.

[SilentSpades24]

These cuts are brutal to say the least.

Cuts are as follows:

Full Elimination: 9, 11, 21, 23, 25, 27, 28, 29, 57, 63, 75
Elimination of Weekend Service: 12, 18, 39, 47, 85, 210, 229, 238
Reduced Weekday Frequency: Main MAX, 12, 18, 31, 35
Reduced Evening Frequency: Main MAX, Troost MAX, Prospect MAX.

My questions I intend to ask tomorrow are:
- Why is 85 kept around at all? Aside from Ward Parkway Mall, it serves nothing unique, or at least nothing that can't be served by Troost or Prospect MAX. Surely cutting that route would allow funding elsewhere (perhaps 39 on the weekend?)
- Why is 39 not running on weekends? KU Medical Center is a major employer, it's insane that service will be gone.
- Why is MMAX and 47 still operating in tandem on Broadway? End the 47 at the Plaza or KU or something. Let MMAX (or whatever it becomes) serve that itself. Also, figure out 35 and why it needs to meander down to the Plaza, Westport, etc. Very wasteful and inefficient.
- KCI will no longer have weekend service as 229 is losing it's weekend service.

[TheLastGentleman]

Perhaps I'm just spitballing here, but is any one else getting the impression that KCMO wants to do away with KCATA and run their own transit service themselves?

Maybe this is actually the way? Give KCMO, or at least urban KCMO, its own half decent system. The only remotely reliable line in the entire region's transit system is the KC streetcar, which is entirely ran by KCMO with a taxing district, yes? Can this be applied at smaller scales to produce some usable bus routes?

San Francisco's MUNI system is seprate from the broader managerie of regional systems. It's far from perfect, but in my experience it gives SF city itself a pretty dense and reliable bus + light rail system.

[SilentSpades24]

Perhaps I'm just spitballing here, but is any one else getting the impression that KCMO wants to do away with KCATA and run their own transit service themselves?

Maybe this is actually the way? Give KCMO, or at least urban KCMO, its own half decent system. The only remotely reliable line in the entire region's transit system is the KC streetcar, which is entirely ran by KCMO with a taxing district, yes? Can this be applied at smaller scales to produce some usable bus routes?

San Francisco's MUNI system is seprate from the broader managerie of regional systems. It's far from perfect, but in my experience it gives SF city itself a pretty dense and reliable bus + light rail system.

I mean it's not like we're that far off from that being a reality anyways, right? Perhaps maybe it would be easier that way. Bring operations in house at KCMO, do away with the redundant administration.

It would be bad for regional cooperation, but it's not like it can get any worse than it is already, right? Only item that would need to be figured out is the KCK portion, as UGT doesn't have the capacity to take on the 101 and 107. Otherwise, we're already there. Perhaps it encourages Jackson County, Clay County to finally get off their rears and try for a more comprehensive Countywide funding mechanism.

Worst case scenario, have MARC assume some of the long range planning for the regions transit systems and have them spearhead a regional fare system.

Not saying I am advocating for this in any way, but is it any worse than where we're at now?

[beautyfromashes]

I'd pare down to a barebones system and make it clean, quick and reliable. Two N-S routes, one being the streetcar and the other Prospect? and two or three E-W, one being Independence Ave and, perhaps, Linwood and MLK? You don't need a bus on Broadway when you have the streetcar on Main. That's it. Non routes to Raytown or Lee's Summit or Blue Springs, etc. Don't mess around with people causing problems or trashing the bus or using it as a shelter. Have a person on each bus to just keep order. Let demand determine which line gets the next streetcar extension.

[SilentSpades24]

I'd pare down to a barebones system and make it clean, quick and reliable. Two N-S routes, one being the streetcar and the other Prospect? and two or three E-W, one being Independence Ave and, perhaps, Linwood and MLK? You don't need a bus on Broadway when you have the streetcar on Main. That's it. Non routes to Raytown or Lee's Summit or Blue Springs, etc. Don't mess around with people causing problems or trashing the bus or using it as a shelter. Have a person on each bus to just keep order. Let demand determine which line gets the next streetcar extension.

In theory we could pair it down to routes on:
- Broadway, Troost, Prospect, Indiana/Swope Pkwy, and Van Brunt / Hardesty
- Independence Ave, 12th, 18th, 31st, 39th, 47th, 63rd, 75th
- The existing Northland Routes (North Oak, I-29 to Airport, Antioch/Armour to Gladstone, Front St/210 Hwy), and the State Avenue to KCK.
- JoCo run their routes (Metcalf, Antioch, Quivira/Johnson Dr, 75th/Quivira, Nall/87th, 95th St)
- KCK run their routes (Quindaro, Central, 7th St, Argentine, West Parallel)
- Maybe someday Independence could have service between Downtown Independence, Blue Ridge Crossing, and Centerpoint/Independence Center

Could still have a reasonably okay system with that, but we'll see. I'm not holding my breath.

[langosta]

I remeber onetime reading a comparison of transit worker pay and Detroit’s drivers made a fraction of those in Kansas City (within the last 2 years or maybe 3). Do we have a cost control issue here?

[beautyfromashes]

In theory we could pair it down to routes on:
- Broadway, Troost, Prospect, Indiana/Swope Pkwy, and Van Brunt / Hardesty
- Independence Ave, 12th, 18th, 31st, 39th, 47th, 63rd, 75th
- The existing Northland Routes (North Oak, I-29 to Airport, Antioch/Armour to Gladstone, Front St/210 Hwy), and the State Avenue to KCK.
- JoCo run their routes (Metcalf, Antioch, Quivira/Johnson Dr, 75th/Quivira, Nall/87th, 95th St)
- KCK run their routes (Quindaro, Central, 7th St, Argentine, West Parallel)
- Maybe someday Independence could have service between Downtown Independence, Blue Ridge Crossing, and Centerpoint/Independence Center

Could still have a reasonably okay system with that, but we'll see. I'm not holding my breath.

I'd cut that in half. You don't need a line on Broadway or Troost if you have the streetcar on Main.

[SilentSpades24]

In theory we could pair it down to routes on:
- Broadway, Troost, Prospect, Indiana/Swope Pkwy, and Van Brunt / Hardesty
- Independence Ave, 12th, 18th, 31st, 39th, 47th, 63rd, 75th
- The existing Northland Routes (North Oak, I-29 to Airport, Antioch/Armour to Gladstone, Front St/210 Hwy), and the State Avenue to KCK.
- JoCo run their routes (Metcalf, Antioch, Quivira/Johnson Dr, 75th/Quivira, Nall/87th, 95th St)
- KCK run their routes (Quindaro, Central, 7th St, Argentine, West Parallel)
- Maybe someday Independence could have service between Downtown Independence, Blue Ridge Crossing, and Centerpoint/Independence Center

Could still have a reasonably okay system with that, but we'll see. I'm not holding my breath.

I'd cut that in half. You don't need a line on Broadway or Troost if you have the streetcar on Main.

You most certainly need a line on Troost. Streetcar service does nothing for Troost.

[SilentSpades24]

I remeber onetime reading a comparison of transit worker pay and Detroit’s drivers made a fraction of those in Kansas City (within the last 2 years or maybe 3). Do we have a cost control issue here?

Its a double edged sword. If you don't pay well, people won't take the job, but the obviously the higher the pay the higher operating costs are.

[beautyfromashes]

You most certainly need a line on Troost. Streetcar service does nothing for Troost.

What is your expectation for the longest timed walk a person should have to make to reach a bus/streetcar stop? If you have lines on Prospect and Main, that would likely be around 15 to 20 minutes. I’m good with that. This is barebones.

[langosta]

I remeber onetime reading a comparison of transit worker pay and Detroit’s drivers made a fraction of those in Kansas City (within the last 2 years or maybe 3). Do we have a cost control issue here?

Its a double edged sword. If you don't pay well, people won't take the job, but the obviously the higher the pay the higher operating costs are.

starting to get past my full memory but I dont think they did have hiring issues there...

[phuqueue]

I'd pare down to a barebones system and make it clean, quick and reliable. Two N-S routes, one being the streetcar and the other Prospect? and two or three E-W, one being Independence Ave and, perhaps, Linwood and MLK? You don't need a bus on Broadway when you have the streetcar on Main. That's it. Non routes to Raytown or Lee's Summit or Blue Springs, etc. Don't mess around with people causing problems or trashing the bus or using it as a shelter. Have a person on each bus to just keep order. Let demand determine which line gets the next streetcar extension.

This is how mass transit systems get caught in a death spiral. Demand for transit service is not a constant that is waiting to be revealed by finding just the right configuration of bus lines. Transit service in KC is not particularly successful for two reasons: the low density of the city and the low quality of the transit system. If KC is ever going to become more of a thriving urban place and less of one big suburb, the city needs a holistic strategy to increase both density and transit service. And as long as the city doesn't have the former, maybe it doesn't especially matter if you gut the latter (though it will matter for the handful of people who do still genuinely rely on transit, and it will make it that much harder to ever finally change course in the future), but don't expect to find one of your four bus lines just bursting at the seams, guiding you to the perfect alignment for the next streetcar extension. Overall ridership of the system will crater (if it is possible to really "crater" from where it already is) as it becomes even less usable. Far from revealing where the next streetcar extension should go, it will undercut arguments for building anything at all.

[beautyfromashes]

This is how mass transit systems get caught in a death spiral. Demand for transit service is not a constant that is waiting to be revealed by finding just the right configuration of bus lines. Transit service in KC is not particularly successful for two reasons: the low density of the city and the low quality of the transit system. If KC is ever going to become more of a thriving urban place and less of one big suburb, the city needs a holistic strategy to increase both density and transit service. And as long as the city doesn't have the former, maybe it doesn't especially matter if you gut the latter (though it will matter for the handful of people who do still genuinely rely on transit, and it will make it that much harder to ever finally change course in the future), but don't expect to find one of your four bus lines just bursting at the seams, guiding you to the perfect alignment for the next streetcar extension. Overall ridership of the system will crater (if it is possible to really "crater" from where it already is) as it becomes even less usable. Far from revealing where the next streetcar extension should go, it will undercut arguments for building anything at all.

If this is true and demand craters with a cut down system, then perhaps there are alternatives that people have found to get where they need to go instead of the bus line. Maybe they found a ride with a friend or rideshare or moved locations or chose a different job or... I'm sure there will be some very much inconvenienced. But, we're talking millions of dollars being spent on a system that obviously is not in demand. And I wholesale reject the idea that cutting our bus system will in any way affect people moving to the city or its progress.