Generic ongoing KCATA thread

[dnweava]

After reading more into it, I think this was released to prepare people for bringing back fares. The article mentions some lines could be saved with just $2 million per year each to operate and fares could bring in $10-13 million. So fares alone could save nearly half the lines it seems.

[beautyfromashes]

After reading more into it, I think this was released to prepare people for bringing back fares. The article mentions some lines could be saved with just $2 million per year each to operate and fares could bring in $10-13 million. So fares alone could save nearly half the lines it seems.

Why are we trying to make this happen so much? If there's not enough demand for a bus when it's FREE, maybe just eliminate it. Instead, we're trying to subsidize it and charge for it and force it into being. People are adaptive, they will find a way to get where they need to go or move closer to where they go regularly. I'm sorry, I wish there was the demand for a packed bus everywhere like in more compact, dense cities. We aren't them.

[FangKC]

This would hit at a very dicey time for many people. Some who might lose access to a route to get to work might have to bite the bullet and get a vehicle. Vehicle prices are very likely to go up even more again because of tariffs on new cars and parts. This will push even more people into the used car market. Prices on used cars are still artificially-high from COVID's effect on chip production stalling new vehicle production. So competition for used cars will continue to be high.

[GRID]

After reading more into it, I think this was released to prepare people for bringing back fares. The article mentions some lines could be saved with just $2 million per year each to operate and fares could bring in $10-13 million. So fares alone could save nearly half the lines it seems.

Why are we trying to make this happen so much? If there's not enough demand for a bus when it's FREE, maybe just eliminate it. Instead, we're trying to subsidize it and charge for it and force it into being. People are adaptive, they will find a way to get where they need to go or move closer to where they go regularly. I'm sorry, I wish there was the demand for a packed bus everywhere like in more compact, dense cities. We aren't them.

I'm serious. The service in KC is so bad and there is so little coverage with such low frequencies that you may as well just get rid of it. Transit can't function like that. I don't even understand why it's free in KC. There is almost no place in the country or world where transit is totally free.

If you can't fund a proper system with just the bare minimum of service and frequency, then yeah, just shut it down. You just will not get the ridership to justify it unless you have a usable system.

It's pretty sad that KC has built what may be the best urban tram line in the United States, but at the same time has allowed its bus system to completely fall apart.

[FangKC]

Why are we trying to make this happen so much? If there's not enough demand for a bus when it's FREE, maybe just eliminate it. Instead, we're trying to subsidize it and charge for it and force it into being. People are adaptive, they will find a way to get where they need to go or move closer to where they go regularly. I'm sorry, I wish there was the demand for a packed bus everywhere like in more compact, dense cities. We aren't them.

It's not as easy as that. Bus systems have to be subsidized because many cannot afford other alternatives. Some safety net benefits require work, yet people on those programs cannot always afford a vehicle. How will they get to work every day? They can't afford Uber to go to and from work when they are barely paying their bills. Yet if they can't get to work, they lose their income and also their safety net benefits.

Not everyone can always pick up and move to be nearer their job. They might be living with parents or friends because they can't afford to live on their own.

[langosta]

After reading more into it, I think this was released to prepare people for bringing back fares. The article mentions some lines could be saved with just $2 million per year each to operate and fares could bring in $10-13 million. So fares alone could save nearly half the lines it seems.

Why are we trying to make this happen so much? If there's not enough demand for a bus when it's FREE, maybe just eliminate it.

There have been numerous complaints from riders that free service is attracting elements that are driving them away from using the bus. Operators and neighbors are also complaining about free service.

[bobthebiker]

The comparison grid draws is the point here. The streetcar by design has encouraged development and then has a system setup in place to capture the value from that development ensuring it's continued operation.

Why can't we move to a system like that with buses. A TDD if you will for bus routes. The residents pay into a small tax and as a result they basically get a guarantee that the bus won't go away and if there is enough money they can get faster and better service?

This is the model that railroads and the original streetcars used back in the day. It seems relying on cities and residents who may or may not directly benefit from the service to approve taxes is not the best way to continue operation funding.

[KCPowercat]

Why are they proposing just cuts versus implementing fares? Shock and awe?

Fares need to come back for number of reasons. The bus isn't a replacement for a homeless shelter and that's what it has turned into.

[Belvidere]

The comparison grid draws is the point here. The streetcar by design has encouraged development and then has a system setup in place to capture the value from that development ensuring it's continued operation.

Why can't we move to a system like that with buses. A TDD if you will for bus routes. The residents pay into a small tax and as a result they basically get a guarantee that the bus won't go away and if there is enough money they can get faster and better service?

This is the model that railroads and the original streetcars used back in the day. It seems relying on cities and residents who may or may not directly benefit from the service to approve taxes is not the best way to continue operation funding.

It may come down to what people can afford. I sort of regret not having the street car go down Independence Avenue, but my neighbors at the time were freaking out because they were on fixed incomes. I'm not sure it's the best transportation solution if you need something flexible and rely on it for all your transportation needs. It's too slow and too rigid, and the benefits have not spread out far enough in terms of development.

[SilentSpades24]

Why are they proposing just cuts versus implementing fares? Shock and awe?

Fares need to come back for number of reasons. The bus isn't a replacement for a homeless shelter and that's what it has turned into.

Fares need to come back, but based off of 2019 numbers, they'd only manage to get $8 million of the $41 million needed. Unless they want to charge a $6.00 fare and $100 for a 31-day pass, fares won't solve this issue. They could, however, spare a few routes from elimination.

Apparently, however, KCMO is in staunch opposition to reinstating fares, and that's been the hang up. I know KCK and JoCo are all for reintroducing fares. Guess we'll find out.

[SilentSpades24]

Perhaps I'm just spitballing here, but is any one else getting the impression that KCMO wants to do away with KCATA and run their own transit service themselves?

Looking at things, KCATA will only operate 2 KCK routes + Lee's Summit Express, in addition to whats left of KCMO's routes once all is said and done.....

[Belvidere]

Why are they proposing just cuts versus implementing fares? Shock and awe?

Fares need to come back for number of reasons. The bus isn't a replacement for a homeless shelter and that's what it has turned into.

Fares need to come back, but based off of 2019 numbers, they'd only manage to get $8 million of the $41 million needed. Unless they want to charge a $6.00 fare and $100 for a 31-day pass, fares won't solve this issue. They could, however, spare a few routes from elimination.

Apparently, however, KCMO is in staunch opposition to reinstating fares, and that's been the hang up. I know KCK and JoCo are all for reintroducing fares. Guess we'll find out.

I think they also need new technology to start receiving fares again. So there's going to be an outlay of money to upgrade the system.

[Belvidere]

Perhaps I'm just spitballing here, but is any one else getting the impression that KCMO wants to do away with KCATA and run their own transit service themselves?

Looking at things, KCATA will only operate 2 KCK routes + Lee's Summit Express, in addition to whats left of KCMO's routes once all is said and done.....

Fair point. They seem to fight a lot with Mid-America Regional Council as well.

[SilentSpades24]

Why are they proposing just cuts versus implementing fares? Shock and awe?

Fares need to come back for number of reasons. The bus isn't a replacement for a homeless shelter and that's what it has turned into.

Fares need to come back, but based off of 2019 numbers, they'd only manage to get $8 million of the $41 million needed. Unless they want to charge a $6.00 fare and $100 for a 31-day pass, fares won't solve this issue. They could, however, spare a few routes from elimination.

Apparently, however, KCMO is in staunch opposition to reinstating fares, and that's been the hang up. I know KCK and JoCo are all for reintroducing fares. Guess we'll find out.

I think they also need new technology to start receiving fares again. So there's going to be an outlay of money to upgrade the system.

Even to get the previously outdated fare boxes back into service is going to be a significant undertaking. They've gone unused for 5 years now.

[Belvidere]

Fares need to come back, but based off of 2019 numbers, they'd only manage to get $8 million of the $41 million needed. Unless they want to charge a $6.00 fare and $100 for a 31-day pass, fares won't solve this issue. They could, however, spare a few routes from elimination.

Apparently, however, KCMO is in staunch opposition to reinstating fares, and that's been the hang up. I know KCK and JoCo are all for reintroducing fares. Guess we'll find out.

I think they also need new technology to start receiving fares again. So there's going to be an outlay of money to upgrade the system.

Even to get the previously outdated fare boxes back into service is going to be a significant undertaking. They've gone unused for 5 years now.

Right. That said, safety has become a problem and I know some dedicated riders, especially women, who have given up.

[SilentSpades24]

I think they also need new technology to start receiving fares again. So there's going to be an outlay of money to upgrade the system.

Even to get the previously outdated fare boxes back into service is going to be a significant undertaking. They've gone unused for 5 years now.

Right. That said, safety has become a problem and I know some dedicated riders, especially women, who have given up.

The safety issues in terms can definitely be helped by reintroducing fares, but that comes with the caveat that drivers are then back in the line of fire trying to enforce that people pay fares.

[KCPowercat]

I wasn't trying to say fares would solve the funding gap sorry if I gave that impression. Fares are going to cost us to start up again and we should probably abandon all but appreciate based payments for a quicker implementation. It's more about riders coming back.

[GRID]

No reason to bring fares back without a transit card or the ability to use phones to pay, it's freaking 2025. No reason to make a huge investment in fare collection technology for a barely useable bus system that even most poor people don't or can't use, let alone people that have other options.

The KCATA needs a total and complete overhaul with new funding mechanisms and it needs to actually take advantage of its bi-state setup or just dissolve the bi-state KCATA because it's pointless.

There is no reason to bring back fair collection for this system as it is right now. Not unless it's part of a much larger plan to get the bus system respectable again.

Of course I am just talking to a wall here because I have been saying this for about 30 years now.

[SilentSpades24]

No reason to bring fares back without a transit card or the ability to use phones to pay, it's freaking 2025. No reason to make a huge investment in fare collection technology for a barely useable bus system that even most poor people don't or can't use, let alone people that have other options.

The KCATA needs a total and complete overhaul with new funding mechanisms and it needs to actually take advantage of its bi-state setup or just dissolve the bi-state KCATA because it's pointless.

There is no reason to bring back fair collection for this system as it is right now. Not unless it's part of a much larger plan to get the bus system respectable again.

Of course I am just talking to a wall here because I have been saying this for about 30 years now.

I'm hoping we're finally at a tipping point to start having serious discussions about a true regional transit system that is regionally funded. We haven't seen cuts this deep ever (barring COVID) and confidence in the KCATA seems to be non-existent. Perhaps it's finally time to rethink it.

[beautyfromashes]

No reason to bring fares back without a transit card or the ability to use phones to pay, it's freaking 2025. No reason to make a huge investment in fare collection technology for a barely useable bus system that even most poor people don't or can't use, let alone people that have other options.

The KCATA needs a total and complete overhaul with new funding mechanisms and it needs to actually take advantage of its bi-state setup or just dissolve the bi-state KCATA because it's pointless.

There is no reason to bring back fair collection for this system as it is right now. Not unless it's part of a much larger plan to get the bus system respectable again.

Of course I am just talking to a wall here because I have been saying this for about 30 years now.

So, we're cutting the bus system because homeless people are using it as a shelter? Why cut the bus instead of solving the homeless problem? And why are we trying to make bus commuting from the suburbs happen? Obviously, it is not popular. If you live/moved to the suburbs, you probably can't reasonably expect a bus connection. You're in the suburbs. And why keep the main reason that people in this city use to densely pack homeless, drug addiction and mental health people in extremely small locales? "Well, it has to be on the bus line!" Well, it doesn't now.