Generic ongoing KCATA thread

Transportation topics in KC
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FangKC
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Re: Generic ongoing KCATA thread

Post by FangKC »

herrfrank wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2025 10:22 am ^^ Collar
^^^ ACT-UP, which was AIDS Coalition to Unleash Power, was effective but late -- really was an early 1990s movement not 1980s. Most AIDS deaths were in the 1980s
ACT UP was formed on March 12, 1987.
...
At the Second National March on Washington for Lesbian and Gay Rights, in October 1987, ACT UP New York made their debut on the national stage, as an active and visible presence in both the march, the main rally, and at the civil disobedience at the United States Supreme Court Building the following day.
...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACT_UP

I guess those first three years didn't count.
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Re: Generic ongoing KCATA thread

Post by SilentSpades24 »

FangKC wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2025 8:13 pm It's usually people who have always lived with certain privileges that say things like that. You both need to quit being so snide. This is how democracy works.

Sometimes you need people to scream to wake politicians from their daily slumber. People criticized ACT-UP methods back in the 80s and 90s, but they ended up being highly effective at drawing attention to the AIDS crisis and getting politicians to do something. People are alive today because of what groups like that did.

You can't always be nice when politicians don't care. The Jackson County Legislature has become a joke. Nothing gets done there.

There are many residents in the Metro whose lives depend on the bus service to get to work, get groceries, or access health care. They are usually the ones with the least power in society. Someone needs to scream for them!

People have every right to scream at people who are supposed to represent them when they feel they aren't listening.

Bus service is getting worse every single day in this Metro. Someone needs to be screaming and they need to be doing it a lot more.

For many residents, bus service is vastly more important to their lives than new stadiums or cap parks over the downtown freeway.
That's a hell of statement to make there. Fact of the matter is I've relied on transit for many years and my mother still relies on transit, since she can not drive. Only reason I am a Planner is specifically because of my struggles with transit as a citizen here.

Fact of the matter is Sunrise Movement has been much more willing to go for cheap performative actions like interrupting a commission hearing, rather than building a larger base of individuals to support transit. They certainly hadn't they bothered attending meetings in Independence, WyCo/KCK when their transit budgets were/are being gutted (hell I even reached out to have the discussion and was shut down). These individuals also haven't seemed to be willing to have a discussion on what it may take to preserve transit. They've outright refused to discuss bringing back fares and have joined KCT in opposing TOD projects along major transit lines.

So yes, it is sad that these are the voices leading the pro-transit conversation, because they have helped alienate, or at least helped limit the discussion around what it will take for transit to survive here. I'd hope they, or other groups can make a more concerted outreach effort and build that support for transit, but I've yet to see anything that indicates otherwise.
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Re: Generic ongoing KCATA thread

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Some people make a choice to view it as cheap performative actions, but sometimes it takes that to get the public to pay attention to what is happening. It is apparent that the bus system has been on the decline for years and the status quo among transit planners and activists has not worked.

I use the bus system myself so I know what I'm talking about. I stand out in the cold, rain, and extreme heat because there all no shelters or benches to rest on while I wait on unpredictable bus arrivals and schedules now. Buses that are supposed to arrive every 30 minutes show up 1 1/2 hours after they should have while I'm waiting in the cold and heat with bags of groceries.

I want people screaming at local, state, and federal politicians at the top of their lungs--over and over--until they get off their asses and fund basic bus service.

If you haven't noticed, your approach isn't working. My point was that being snide about those who do scream in frustration isn't helping the discussion either.

I cheer them. At least they are doing something. Whether you see it as productive is not of concern to me at this point. I want those politicians to feel uncomfortable and be shocked out of their lethargy about their inability to affect change for their constituents.

Many people don't have time to attend meetings and organize cohesive coalitions to produce solutions because they are busy trying to survive and make a living. Politicians and public employees are supposed to be doing that for us.
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Re: Generic ongoing KCATA thread

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Another point I'd like to make is that I used to work in a state government. It was often public actions like these making politicians and public employees the subject of these types of actions that caused them to do something to solve the problem.

Having the media cover actions -- whether you approve of it or not -- often produces results over time.
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Re: Generic ongoing KCATA thread

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FangKC wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2025 10:48 pm Another point I'd like to make is that I used to work in a state government. It was often public actions like these making politicians and public employees the subject of these types of actions that caused them to do something to solve the problem.

Having the media cover actions -- whether you approve of it or not -- often produces results over time.
And they have adopted the very real talking point of counties providing funding for transit, which is the (successful) model on the Kansas side of the metro. Putting counties in charge reduces the fractures created by city-only funding that we've seen with KCMO, NKC, Gladstone, Raytown, Blue Springs, Lee's Summit, etc.

This talking point is now almost universally accepted as the approach for improving the transit system and building projects we are planning but don't yet have funding to build and operate (airport, east/west, northrail, bi-state regional corridor -- which, oh by the way, all span municipal boundaries).
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Re: Generic ongoing KCATA thread

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Sounds like there is a growing push from KCATA drivers to get zero fare ended. Concerns are around mentally unstable riding around all day and causing problems around bus stops or on board. Some riders have provided public testimony along the same lines. This issue has also been a driver for shelters being removed around downtown and other places.
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Re: Generic ongoing KCATA thread

Post by shinatoo »

Is that a product of zero fare or the sudden increase in homelessness since Covid? If they are bringing back a fare system it needs to be a modernized, tap to pay, system. Standing in the rain while people fumble around for cash is infuriating, it also delays the bus.
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Re: Generic ongoing KCATA thread

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langosta wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 7:04 pm Sounds like there is a growing push from KCATA drivers to get zero fare ended. Concerns are around mentally unstable riding around all day and causing problems around bus stops or on board. Some riders have provided public testimony along the same lines. This issue has also been a driver for shelters being removed around downtown and other places.
I've heard the same. It's the result of the zero fare program. Has resulted in many former riders avoiding the bus all together and switching to ride shares just to avoid being harassed all day long by the unstable folks making the buses their sanctuary's.
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Re: Generic ongoing KCATA thread

Post by langosta »

im2kull wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 9:54 pm
langosta wrote: Tue Feb 04, 2025 7:04 pm Sounds like there is a growing push from KCATA drivers to get zero fare ended. Concerns are around mentally unstable riding around all day and causing problems around bus stops or on board. Some riders have provided public testimony along the same lines. This issue has also been a driver for shelters being removed around downtown and other places.
I've heard the same. It's the result of the zero fare program. Has resulted in many former riders avoiding the bus all together and switching to ride shares just to avoid being harassed all day long by the unstable folks making the buses their sanctuary's.
It is my understanding that the same issue ultimately led to Austin cancelling their free fare experiment decades ago.

A few bigger bus adjacent employers are at risk of moving. Trying to find solutions now to retain.
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Re: Generic ongoing KCATA thread

Post by beautyfromashes »

im2kull wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 9:54 pm I've heard the same. It's the result of the zero fare program. Has resulted in many former riders avoiding the bus all together and switching to ride shares just to avoid being harassed all day long by the unstable folks making the buses their sanctuary's.
If people riding the bus are either homeless or can afford to switch to ride share over a free system, why do we have a bus system at all? Just take the money and distribute ride share vouchers to those below a certain income level.
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Re: Generic ongoing KCATA thread

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Consider the source.
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Re: Generic ongoing KCATA thread

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It's probably best to charge a fare and get a discount program going
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Re: Generic ongoing KCATA thread

Post by SilentSpades24 »

beautyfromashes wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 10:30 pm
im2kull wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 9:54 pm I've heard the same. It's the result of the zero fare program. Has resulted in many former riders avoiding the bus all together and switching to ride shares just to avoid being harassed all day long by the unstable folks making the buses their sanctuary's.
If people riding the bus are either homeless or can afford to switch to ride share over a free system, why do we have a bus system at all? Just take the money and distribute ride share vouchers to those below a certain income level.
Because putting hundreds of people out of jobs and issuing vouchers for a much more expensive transportation mode is not what any city/metro should be doing, and would be a horrendous policy decision. People clearly want comfort and will pay for it. Reintroducing fares would help do just that.
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Re: Generic ongoing KCATA thread

Post by SilentSpades24 »

DaveKCMO wrote: Fri Jan 31, 2025 1:07 pm
FangKC wrote: Thu Jan 30, 2025 10:48 pm Another point I'd like to make is that I used to work in a state government. It was often public actions like these making politicians and public employees the subject of these types of actions that caused them to do something to solve the problem.

Having the media cover actions -- whether you approve of it or not -- often produces results over time.
And they have adopted the very real talking point of counties providing funding for transit, which is the (successful) model on the Kansas side of the metro. Putting counties in charge reduces the fractures created by city-only funding that we've seen with KCMO, NKC, Gladstone, Raytown, Blue Springs, Lee's Summit, etc.

This talking point is now almost universally accepted as the approach for improving the transit system and building projects we are planning but don't yet have funding to build and operate (airport, east/west, northrail, bi-state regional corridor -- which, oh by the way, all span municipal boundaries).
I'll give them credit, they've advocated for that as they should. Still wish we could see that message become more widespread.
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Re: Generic ongoing KCATA thread

Post by SilentSpades24 »

KCPowercat wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 10:51 pm It's probably best to charge a fare and get a discount program going
That's what existed previously. Employers would offer the 31-day pass at a reduced rate to their employees (nearly half off IIRC). For a time churches and other charities would provide one ride passes to individuals.
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Re: Generic ongoing KCATA thread

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SilentSpades24 wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 11:51 pm Because putting hundreds of people out of jobs and issuing vouchers for a much more expensive transportation mode is not what any city/metro should be doing, and would be a horrendous policy decision. People clearly want comfort and will pay for it. Reintroducing fares would help do just that.
Is this an honor decision or is there any kind of financial reason to it? We spend millions of dollars a year and now possibly fares to ride for a relatively small percentage of the population. And how does it make any sense to add fares because of homelessness issues instead of trying to actually solve the homelessness issue? And why are we differentiating the jobs lost when a car sharing voucher program would also push jobs. Do we value a bus driver over the job of an uber driver? Public bus transportation makes sense in many cities but maybe in ours it’s just throwing good money after bad just to look bigger than we are.
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Re: Generic ongoing KCATA thread

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Most major cities have fees for public transportation. It's a method to help fund the transit. Those dollars help to maintain the transit fleet, along with other tax revenue, budget allocations, etc. Plus it could be dollars generated that may help create a transit police to patrol troubled bus stops etc. As long as it is modernized with quick payments, like METRO Cards, is affordable and have certain discount programs I would say it would be a good plan.

Homeless ppl, and the amount of mentally unstable ppl; caused by illness or years of substance abuse, are completely different issues. The fare would help reduce the frequency of issues that may be related to this population causing issues, petty crimes, public disturbances, etc. It helps but certainly does not solve the bigger issue. But if we can figure out a way to make public transportation better for the public that relies on it and chooses to use to specific needs rather than a free all day "joy ride" of sorts that would be a good start.

I'm not sure how you tackle the problem of increased homelessness and the mental illness that is rampant in that population. Care facilities and care providers are needed to help those who can be helped and want help. Perhaps developing trade schools to help some of these individuals develop skills or those who have skills create some work opportunities for them. Maybe government workforce like the depression era WPA with specific goals of improving infrastructure. Updating the electrical grid, road/bridge improvements. Obviously this all costs money and there is no easy way to fund it. The cost could be offset by the gains produced but no politician thinks that way.
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Re: Generic ongoing KCATA thread

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dukuboy1 wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2025 10:32 am Most major cities have fees for public transportation. It's a method to help fund the transit. Those dollars help to maintain the transit fleet, along with other tax revenue, budget allocations, etc. Plus it could be dollars generated that may help create a transit police to patrol troubled bus stops etc. As long as it is modernized with quick payments, like METRO Cards, is affordable and have certain discount programs I would say it would be a good plan.
But why? Why are we trying to make bus transportation happen when the demand is so low in this city and the cost is so high (and apparently getting higher with a fare)? Is it just "because that's what cities do"?
dukuboy1 wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2025 10:32 am I'm not sure how you tackle the problem of increased homelessness and the mental illness that is rampant in that population. Care facilities and care providers are needed to help those who can be helped and want help.
You start by not making getting help a choice. We have people that are obviously not well, yelling at the sky and hitting themselves. There's no choice on whether that person gets help. You have people shooting up and leaving used needles all over the sidewalks. You get that person off the street for the common good. If someone was hit by a car and dying on the sidewalk we wouldn't ask if they consented to help. This liberal idea that living on the street in terrible conditions should be a choice is crazy.
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Re: Generic ongoing KCATA thread

Post by langosta »

beautyfromashes wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2025 10:49 am
dukuboy1 wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2025 10:32 am Most major cities have fees for public transportation. It's a method to help fund the transit. Those dollars help to maintain the transit fleet, along with other tax revenue, budget allocations, etc. Plus it could be dollars generated that may help create a transit police to patrol troubled bus stops etc. As long as it is modernized with quick payments, like METRO Cards, is affordable and have certain discount programs I would say it would be a good plan.
But why? Why are we trying to make bus transportation happen when the demand is so low in this city and the cost is so high (and apparently getting higher with a fare)? Is it just "because that's what cities do"?
dukuboy1 wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2025 10:32 am I'm not sure how you tackle the problem of increased homelessness and the mental illness that is rampant in that population. Care facilities and care providers are needed to help those who can be helped and want help.
You start by not making getting help a choice. We have people that are obviously not well, yelling at the sky and hitting themselves. There's no choice on whether that person gets help. You have people shooting up and leaving used needles all over the sidewalks. You get that person off the street for the common good. If someone was hit by a car and dying on the sidewalk we wouldn't ask if they consented to help. This liberal idea that living on the street in terrible conditions should be a choice is crazy.
There is need for transit along certain routes. Demand has waned as core employment has plummeted and service has gotten unusable. Investing in transit (a useful service level) and making sure it’s safe/comfortable will result in strong ridership. The streetcar is a fantastic local example of that.
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Re: Generic ongoing KCATA thread

Post by TheLastGentleman »

If they reimpliment fares, we need some way to make 100% sure that service will improve to something even remotely resembling a usable bus network.
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