Can St Louis compete?

[shinatoo]

I don't see why anyone would hate st. Louis. I'm up there quite a bit and find it much more stimulating than KC, Indianapolis, Memphis or Cincinnati (which I would consider pier cities). Of course i spend 90 percent of my time inside the 270 loop, the burbs are equal to every other city in the U.S. Culturally it is very advanced for a city of it's size. Probably because it is a very old city with a rich multi-ethnic heritage and  lost of old money.

Quit hating on the Lou.

Albert Pujols

Toasted Ravioli

[warwickland]

Plus there's nothing like beating up on the Chicago cubs, especially when they come down here and try to take over half of Busch stadium, hurling insults at us the whole time.  :)

I hope that's not what Cardinals fans do when they come to KC.

[IraGlacialis]

Maybe it is because I just take little one-day trips (mainly to Delmar, MOBOT, Forest Park, Soulard, and the Hill) with a set agenda in mind, but every time I have gone to, and driven around, St. Louis, I have came back with a mainly positive view of the place (granted, the first time I went to St. Louis by myself, I dealt with an angry hobo I accidentally mistaken for a dead body, and I accidentally went north on Grand instead of south, but yeah...).
Even out of the touristy areas, I would consider that city to be quite beautiful, admittedly in a depressing sort of way sometimes when looking at neighborhood that have gone downhill; however, I see potential in that.
Though growth-wise, the factional insularity can be quite damaging, it seems to be what give a good portion of the city it character. Hopefully, it can somehow strike a balance between progress and identity.
I don't know why, but cities are one of the few things I like being optimistic about (except LA and Dallas; those places can slide into the sea/be swallowed up by the earth for all I care)

[phuqueue]

I used to live in DeB Place. Great physical bones, some of the best in the midwest, but I felt like the immediate commerical of the neighborhood wasn't fleshed out yet (it wouldn't take much, the urban commercial building stock is already there). It was too far from the meat of Delmar or the CWE for me. A good thing about St. Louis is that you can move between neighborhoods here and practically feel like you are changing cities. I ended up moving on down to the southside and found it a better fit for me personally (and I bought a house). I always wanted to live "downtown" CWE, though, never did. I don't even know what that would be like. I never really considered where you live to be the CWE, and its not technically. If you aren't a 5 minute walk from Coffee Cartel...

It's not technically CWE, but I walk to (or through en route to other places, usually Schnucks) the CWE all the time, so I think it's close enough.  I live on Pershing and the official boundary between DeBaliviere and CWE is Union, no more than a two minute walk from me.  Of course, the real heart of CWE is the Euclid corridor, which is a little bit farther east, but still an easy walk.  If I gave the impression that I thought my own place was in the CWE, I didn't really mean to, but it's all so close together that it doesn't really make a difference to me one way or the other (except that it would be nice to be right there along Euclid).  I walk to Delmar quite a bit too, but lately I haven't been pulled that way as much.

I'd agree that DeBaliviere is too far from the meat of Delmar or CWE insofar as I'd love to be living along a busy street with something below me other than more apartments, and this is a pretty quiet residential area compared to either of those.  But I don't think it's really too far in general -- it's maybe a 15 minute walk in either direction to hit one of them and a relatively straight shot in either case.  I think the proximity is sufficient in general, but it would be nice to have more going on right on my own street.  One of the really frustrating things is along the north side of Pershing there actually is a lot of ground level retail space and most of it seems to be taken up by real estate offices and model apartments and other black holes.  I've used both the tailor and the dry cleaners at the east end of the street, and I've made more hungover trips to Papa John's at the west end than I'd care to admit, but aside from Atlas and Talayna's (which I've never actually been to, if I'm willing to spend the extra money not to get chain pizza, I'd rather just go to Pi), there aren't really any destination spots along my street.  I guess there are a couple tables in Subway if I want to stay in while I eat my crappy sandwich, but otherwise it's all just places you're in and out of (Papa John's carry out, the little convenience store that basically only sells soda and chips, etc).  There is a coffee shop at Union (and there was another one at DeBaliviere, but it closed a few months ago and has just been dormant ever since), but I don't drink coffee or tea or anything, so I don't find many occasions to go in.  A decent eat-in pizza place, maybe a little cheaper than Pi, would be great (I should probably try Talayna's before I make up my mind that it's no good, but it just looks pretty bad and I've never heard anyone talk about it -- actually, I'm nearly out of food now, so instead of grocery shopping I'll go to Talayna's tomorrow), maybe another restaurant or two that's a bit below the Atlas price range, and definitely it'd be nice to get a bar or something down here.

I asked around on another forum I go to for some decent bar recs in town and was told that STL doesn't really have I guess what I would call "destination" bars, places you'd want to go out of your way to visit (examples in KC, for me at least, would be like Harry's or 1924 (RIP), or Addison's in Columbia), but that it was a great town for small neighborhood bars.  Trouble is, my neighborhood doesn't seem to have any bars.  I think my favorite place I've been to so far is the Shaved Duck, but that's down in Tower Grove Park; we went down there because we'd heard (incorrectly, as it turned out) that they fry their food in duck fat; still good food, and an awesome beer selection if you're just going in for the bar, but I'm not really a fan of driving to bars and I don't have a car to drive myself there even if I wanted to.

It's just kind of irritating because you're right that the building stock is here, there's really plenty of space to drop in a decent little bar or something and a restaurant or two, but nobody's really doing it.  Hopefully someone will do something cool with the Velocity space, but there hasn't been any sign of life in there since they shut their doors.  Even though I didn't really go in there much (as a coffee shop, they didn't really have much to appeal to my beer/whiskey/water sensibilities), I don't want to see a place like that shut down.  But with the other coffee shop (2Schae or whatever it's called) just down on the end of the block, I'd say coffee is the one thing this street had plenty of.  I don't think anyone's leased the space yet, but I'm crossing my fingers for something worthwhile -- a bar, a sandwich shop, a small restaurant, whatever.

[JivecitySTL]

It's nice to know that people in KC are paying attention to what's happening in STL.  While St. Louis lags behind a number of its peer cities (Denver, Seattle, Minneapolis, etc) in many areas, it also leads several others (Cleveland, Detroit, Pittsburgh, etc) in many other areas.  What STL's problem is is that these days it tends to fall somewhere in the middle of the pack, whereas for most of its history, it far exceeded most others that are now considered its peers.  It is getting better, and it will continue to do so.

(Full disclosure: for those who don't know, I am Randy Vines, quoted in the second article "Finding a Niche."  My brother, STLgasm, is Jeff Vines.)

[warwickland]

I asked around on another forum I go to for some decent bar recs in town and was told that STL doesn't really have I guess what I would call "destination" bars, places you'd want to go out of your way to visit (examples in KC, for me at least, would be like Harry's or 1924 (RIP), or Addison's in Columbia), but that it was a great town for small neighborhood bars.  Trouble is, my neighborhood doesn't seem to have any bars.  I think my favorite place I've been to so far is the Shaved Duck, but that's down in Tower Grove Park; we went down there because we'd heard (incorrectly, as it turned out) that they fry their food in duck fat; still good food, and an awesome beer selection if you're just going in for the bar, but I'm not really a fan of driving to bars and I don't have a car to drive myself there even if I wanted to.

Off the top of my head...probably my favorite beer joint/greasy spoon ever and anywhere is Iron Barley, down on Virginia, probably way out of the way for you, deep deep south city, but worth getting down there sometime. Better check the website, it's closed on Sundays currently. Easier places for you to get to - Scottish Arms (CWE), The Bridge Tap Room and Wine Bar, great tap selection and hooked up to Left Bank Books (Locust - CBD), of course the two Schlafly locations, which are a small hike from metro stops, but nonetheless accessible. Stuff has still been popping up, theres a new brewery in the CWE somewhere...the new wave of bars/restauraunts has been strong enough to continue even though we are in a recession.

[shinatoo]

Plus there's nothing like beating up on the Chicago cubs, especially when they come down here and try to take over half of Busch stadium, hurling insults at us the whole time.  :)

I hope that's not what Cardinals fans do when they come to KC.

Unfortunately there is a large number of the Cardinal crowd that behaves that way in KC.

[shinatoo]

Off the top of my head...probably my favorite beer joint/greasy spoon ever and anywhere is Iron Barley, down on Virginia, probably way out of the way for you, deep deep south city, but worth getting down there sometime. Better check the website, it's closed on Sundays currently. Easier places for you to get to - Scottish Arms (CWE), The Bridge Tap Room and Wine Bar, great tap selection and hooked up to Left Bank Books (Locust - CBD), of course the two Schlafly locations, which are a small hike from metro stops, but nonetheless accessible. Stuff has still been popping up, theres a new brewery in the CWE somewhere...the new wave of bars/restauraunts has been strong enough to continue even though we are in a recession.

Iron Barley might be one of the top five restaurants I have ever been to.

[chingon]

In my opinion, what happens with people's perceptions of STL is a simple function of cognitive dissonance. It's a rad town. It's architecturally lovely, facinating historically as well as currently, its cheap and liveable, it has a lot more top notch tourist amenities than most places of its size, etc.

But...

It looks bigger than it is. That's it. That's why people think it sucks. It physically looks like a town twice its size. It appears to be (and structurally is) a peer city of places like Baltimore/Philly/DC. Its building stock is dense, urban and yet still unique and easily identifiable. However, its actual urban population (numerically and in terms of density, too) is now very comparable to historically smaller cities like KC/Cincy/Columbus, so St Louis feels like a mid-sized sleeper even though it looks like a big city, and people who aren't smart or adventurous travelers/residents come away from it with the same gripes they have when the visit Cleveland (which has the same problem as STL) or KC or Milwaukee. Because its not a big city. And it hasn't been for as long as anyone who cares about that kind of shit can remember. And it's not going to be again in anyone here's lifetime. But it will always be undervalued, underrated and unique. What more could you ask for, really?

[chrizow]

phuqueue - i recommend you go buy yourself a $1,000 car and get to exploring the city!  (or, if you like, a bike - STL is completely flat and has bike lanes!) 

[nilsson1941]

phuqueue - i recommend you go buy yourself a $1,000 car and get to exploring the city!  (or, if you like, a bike - STL is completely flat and has bike lanes!) 

They do have a MUCH better biking situation there (although I don't lanes help that much. I think the fact that it's flat does). Which is why it's surprising that I don't see THAT many more people biking there than in KC ( at least in the urban core). I have friends who live in STL that say that biking is an issue there, due to most of driver's knowledge about bikers...

[LenexatoKCMO]

I have friends who live in STL that say that biking is an issue there, due to most of driver's knowledge about bikers...

That's an issue pretty much anywhere in the country.  Any cyclist who deludes himself into thinking that drivers in some particular location are better informed or safer around cyclists is just setting himself up to let his guard down. 

[KCFutbol]

That's an issue pretty much anywhere in the country.  Any cyclist who deludes himself into thinking that drivers in some particular location are better informed or safer around cyclists is just setting himself up to let his guard down. 

Absolutely true. As a cyclist who also commutes by bicycle, the best thing you can do is assume every driver is out to get you. Cycle defensively and you stand a better chance of remaining in an upright position.

[phuqueue]

phuqueue - i recommend you go buy yourself a $1,000 car and get to exploring the city!  (or, if you like, a bike - STL is completely flat and has bike lanes!) 

I actually bought a bike when I moved down here, my first one in quite a while after my last one was stolen.  I didn't really ride it much during the winter though, so I'm still working my quads into decent enough shape to sustain long distances.  I walk all the time and can just about walk forever, but unfortunately walking and biking don't rely on all the same muscles and it only takes a couple miles on the bike, even on flat terrain, before I feel like death.

Not planning on picking up a car, though.  Even though it's a bit of a pain in the ass to live here without one and does hinder my exploration of the city, I made a conscious decision when I left KC that the car wasn't coming with me.  I don't want to spend my whole life tethered to the damn thing and if I keep telling myself I'm only keeping it for a couple more years then when am I ever going to get rid of it?  I've been car-free for almost ten months now and despite the headaches, it's pretty wonderful.

[TheUrbanRoo]

I went to the St Louis urban forum site today for the first time in awhile today, and I had a good chuckle.

They've spent prob like 10 full forum pages this year alone discussing & bemoaning projects in KC, but then seemingly on every single page they someone wailing about how "they just HATE us in Kansas City and wish they could be us!".

These people spend 50x more time talking about KC than KCrag talks about StL. Hell, I don't even know what's even going on in StL other than that riverfront barge thing but it seems they know and discuss just about everything going on in KC. Every few posts someone would have to throw out some cope stat to try to justify why KC's downtown wasn't "better" than theirs. A bunch of "I hate the Chiefs!" too. It is hilarious.

Funniest part was someone posted a quote from WSJ article about Ray Washburne saying "we expect to attract people shopping from as far as Omaha & StL" and this guy goes on a whole rant about why StL would never shop there.

I suggest a good look at it, but it's puzzling to me where they come up with "they hate us!" when there's barely any discussion of StL...but then they have this beefed up forum dedicated to just trying to compare themselves to downtown KC. It's honestly kinda delusional. But yeah, real thriving downtown over there isn't it! Lol

[KC_Ari]

Weird. Everything about StL that I've seen people post on the rag has been pretty cool.

[Chris Stritzel]

I went to the St Louis urban forum site today for the first time in awhile today, and I had a good chuckle.

They've spent prob like 10 full forum pages this year alone discussing & bemoaning projects in KC, but then seemingly on every single page they someone wailing about how "they just HATE us in Kansas City and wish they could be us!".

These people spend 50x more time talking about KC than KCrag talks about StL. Hell, I don't even know what's even going on in StL other than that riverfront barge thing but it seems they know and discuss just about everything going on in KC. Every few posts someone would have to throw out some cope stat to try to justify why KC's downtown wasn't "better" than theirs. A bunch of "I hate the Chiefs!" too. It is hilarious.

Funniest part was someone posted a quote from WSJ article about Ray Washburne saying "we expect to attract people shopping from as far as Omaha & StL" and this guy goes on a whole rant about why StL would never shop there.

I suggest a good look at it, but it's puzzling to me where they come up with "they hate us!" when there's barely any discussion of StL...but then they have this beefed up forum dedicated to just trying to compare themselves to downtown KC. It's honestly kinda delusional. But yeah, real thriving downtown over there isn't it! Lol

I know quite a few people on UrbanSTL. I’m a user over there as well and have engaged in spirited debates there in the past. Yes, some users get upset about things going on in KC and people over here mentioning St. Louis, but most people on that forum don’t really care. It’s the same thing for St. Louisans as a whole. A handful do not like Kansas City (or Chicago for that matter), but most don’t care. Most people know at least one person in Kansas City (can be a child, sibling, niece/nephew or friend).

Just like how there are a few people on this forum, and in KC, who dislike St. Louis and what not, we shouldn’t get caught up in little things like this. It only seeks to divide the members of the online urban forum communities.

Both cities are hubs for Missouri and have metro areas that cross into other states. They’re significant and do their own things well, but both have problems that need addressing. Visiting St. Louis is a nice time and I encourage people to do it often. It’s a city of old charm. Yes, it’s down on its luck right now, but there are some things they’re doing right and trying to improve on. The state of downtown isn’t very good right now, but people all over need to realize that most other cities don’t have a large scale secondary central business district competing for the same jobs as downtown St. Louis. You’re also dealing with a downtown area that is a whole lot bigger than most comparable cities with larger buildings. A reinvention of downtown St. Louis will take time. Everyone over there acknowledges it.

As a former St. Louisan, I admit that I’m often tough on my old home, but I’m not anti-St. Louis. I want St. Louis to thrive again. It’s a shame it isn’t.

[FangKC]

This dynamic existed in the early 80s when I was at MU. I didn't grow up in either city so I wasn't as invested. I did note that people from St. Louis were much bigger braggarts and seemed to have an unrealistic view of St. Louis' place compared to other cities--saying STL was the greatest place in the world. It seemed to come more from people living in suburban communities in the County. Those I knew who lived in the City itself were much more realistic.

The other thing I observed is that most of the STL people who hated Kansas City had never been here.

I grew up in small town in a rural area in NW Missouri. People there regularly make derisive comments about California. It's the same thing. Chances are they have never been to California. To be fair, people in my home county said derisive things about Kansas City too.

[chingon]

(Mostly) because of the Chiefs, for a couple years Kansas City has been on the tongue of a lot of people in America who otherwise would not have remembered it existed. I am in StL regularly for business, and what I hear most from people there is "Kansas City does everything right that St Louis does wrong" (which obviously is not true) and I think the already pronounced "former high school star quarterback syndrome" of a lot of St Louis boosters has been inflamed badly.

[TrolliKC]

Agree, everyone should just chill on STL, its our biggest and "best?" suburb