Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

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What route should the third phase of streetcar expansion follow?

Linwood: Main to Michigan(71 Highway)
11
10%
Country Club ROW: UMKC to Brookside/Waldo
24
22%
Country Club ROW: UMKC through Brookside/Waldo to Prospect
14
13%
Linwood: Main to Emanuel Cleaver 2
13
12%
City/County Wide Rail Project
40
36%
Other
9
8%
 
Total votes: 111

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DaveKCMO
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by DaveKCMO »

rxlexi wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 12:45 pm
langosta wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 12:24 pm Time to think about dedicated row transit into and around downtown?
Worth discussing. I worry for the streetcar if/when Royals and 670 park happen downtown.
That’s literally the NEPA comment from streetcar.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by langosta »

DaveKCMO wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 5:58 pm
rxlexi wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 12:45 pm
langosta wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 12:24 pm Time to think about dedicated row transit into and around downtown?
Worth discussing. I worry for the streetcar if/when Royals and 670 park happen downtown.
That’s literally the NEPA comment from streetcar.
Should we consider alternatives to Main Street through downtown? I mean frankly it wasn’t working pre-Covid and I expect it to continue to not work with or without the stadium. Much of the causes being active traffic control which I guess could be made better. Still, I wonder if an eventual rebuild or bypass line on Grand isn’t inevitable.

An idea would be to run northland rail down grand or locust to US, connect Independence Avenue similarly. Have any JoCo line also come up grand
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by langosta »

Could see 18th and Vine streetcar get to a study in not long. Talks are starting to heat up. Funding Funding Funding is the limiting factor. Cost estimates for North Rail and E/W have spiraled out of control.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by DaveKCMO »

langosta wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 12:52 am Could see 18th and Vine streetcar get to a study in not long. Talks are starting to heat up. Funding Funding Funding is the limiting factor. Cost estimates for North Rail and E/W have spiraled out of control.
It would likely have to run to at least Prospect to be useful, about 2 miles from Main. There is a LOT of light industrial land use east of Woodland that would hinder any streetcar proposal. That hasn't changed at all since NextRail, but changes are moving in that direction.

On a technical level, the starter line was not designed to have a connection at 18th so there will need to be an expensive tie-in there. The city is also planning bumpouts east of Main that will make the street two lanes (adding to the bike lane and 18th & Vine traffic restrictions planned for the pedestrian plaza).
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by FlippantCitizen »

langosta wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 12:52 am Could see 18th and Vine streetcar get to a study in not long. Talks are starting to heat up. Funding Funding Funding is the limiting factor. Cost estimates for North Rail and E/W have spiraled out of control.
What quarters are these talks heating up in? I'm still unsure what funding for Linwood E/W is going to look like, are they trying to get a shovel ready plan for 18th street too so some kind of city/county vote would cover funding for both?
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by DaveKCMO »

FlippantCitizen wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 10:29 pm
langosta wrote: Mon Mar 25, 2024 12:52 am Could see 18th and Vine streetcar get to a study in not long. Talks are starting to heat up. Funding Funding Funding is the limiting factor. Cost estimates for North Rail and E/W have spiraled out of control.
What quarters are these talks heating up in? I'm still unsure what funding for Linwood E/W is going to look like, are they trying to get a shovel ready plan for 18th street too so some kind of city/county vote would cover funding for both?
I've attended one meeting. There isn't a real plan yet, just conversation, so no one should get their hopes up before E/W advances a funding plan.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by langosta »

St Louis is hitting the 1 year under construction mark on their 5 mile extension to Mid America airport. 5+ miles for $98 million. Mostly just unused land that was graded with a few bridge works. I think this can help serve as an example of how to do Waldo on a budget

https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/gov ... 65e86.html
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by langosta »

langosta wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2024 7:57 am St Louis is hitting the 1 year under construction mark on their 5 mile extension to Mid America airport. 5+ miles for $98 million. Mostly just unused land that was graded with a few bridge works. I think this can help serve as an example of how to do Waldo on a budget

https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/gov ... 65e86.html
Top speed is 60-70MPH. Photos of the work show their project is significantly more involved than a Waldo extension would be. Even given inflation, waldo could be done for $20-30 million a mile.

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cutting over a lake or pond

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building bridges over roadways

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Map

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by alejandro46 »

It really is wild how low density the IL side metrolink line is. This expansion seems like an easy call though, they're already so close to that airport.

The only thing with Waldo is how much utility relocation would cost. I'm not an expert, but given the track would be in a dedicated right of way and not on roadbed, agree that surely it would be much less than the previous segments.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by langosta »

time=1713834839 user_id=231772]
langosta wrote: Mon Apr 22, 2024 7:57 am St Louis is hitting the 1 year under construction mark on their 5 mile extension to Mid America airport. 5+ miles for $98 million. Mostly just unused land that was graded with a few bridge works. I think this can help serve as an example of how to do Waldo on a budget
Seeing how quickly STL and Riverfront construction is going further excited me on Waldo. Can be done quickly and for a price far below what you’d think.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by smh »

A Brookside expansion along the trolley trail ROW would need to discuss in detail how it interacted and benefitted the trail to avoid an East Crossroads style backlash in my opinion.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by Midtownkid »

Honestly, if the streetcar was to go to Brookside/Waldo, I think it would be better on the actual street. The ROW is now an invaluable recreational amenity. Center running on BKS Blvd would be my choice. I don't think I care it if does go that far south. It is mostly 'suburban' in nature south of the Plaza. The retail 'villages' have plenty of parking already.

Here is a good question: would Brookside and Country Club District residents get on the streetcar to go to the Opera or an event at the Sprint Center...or would they drive in their Mercedes? I suppose Waldo would be better served with streetcar access.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by langosta »

smh wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 8:22 am A Brookside expansion along the trolley trail ROW would need to discuss in detail how it interacted and benefitted the trail to avoid an East Crossroads style backlash in my opinion.
Bike Walk KC has materials. I’ll try to find but multiple other cities have done transit along a trail way. Usually the upgraded to the trail / parks get people on board.

Building this in the street kills any costs and time savings that would make this extension attractive.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by shinatoo »

Midtownkid wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 8:29 am Honestly, if the streetcar was to go to Brookside/Waldo, I think it would be better on the actual street. The ROW is now an invaluable recreational amenity. Center running on BKS Blvd would be my choice. I don't think I care it if does go that far south. It is mostly 'suburban' in nature south of the Plaza. The retail 'villages' have plenty of parking already.

Here is a good question: would Brookside and Country Club District residents get on the streetcar to go to the Opera or an event at the Sprint Center...or would they drive in their Mercedes? I suppose Waldo would be better served with streetcar access.
Street running is the only way it gets passed. Trolly Trail is now sacred ground.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by Cratedigger »

Absolutely should not be street running when you have a perfectly good wide ROW ready for use

Luckily the project team understands this. Or at least they did in 2013
‘the trail stays’ if the streetcar is built here. The plan is to run the streetcar in the right of way along the Trolley Track Trail, so the trail and the streetcars coexist side by side. An easement of 100 feet would be enough space for both the streetcar and the trail
https://insidebrookside.com/2013/10/14/ ... ley-trail/

This concept has been done many times, in many cities. Not sure if this is the bikewalk materials that were referred to above

https://bikewalkkc.org/streetcar-trolleytracktrail/

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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by Midtownkid »

Those photos and renderings help. I can imagine this. Wonder if they would have to put up a fence to 'protect' people from the tracks? Aesthetically I like this open look. Having grass between the rails helps it maintain the boulevard look.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by langosta »

Midtownkid wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 12:51 pm Those photos and renderings help. I can imagine this. Wonder if they would have to put up a fence to 'protect' people from the tracks? Aesthetically I like this open look. Having grass between the rails helps it maintain the boulevard look.
If streetcar hits the 40-55mph yes you’d likely need a barrier. Fence or planters.

I have done probably 30-40mph in Europe with no barriers.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by langosta »

langosta wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 1:29 pm
Midtownkid wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 12:51 pm Those photos and renderings help. I can imagine this. Wonder if they would have to put up a fence to 'protect' people from the tracks? Aesthetically I like this open look. Having grass between the rails helps it maintain the boulevard look.
If streetcar hits the 40-55mph yes you’d likely need a barrier. Fence or planters.

I have done probably 30-40mph in Europe with no barriers.
Charlotte uses a fence with trees. Operates as light rail with higher speeds of 55mph. Track ROW itself is about 35' and total ROW is about 80' in the sections with trails.

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Here is an implementation using trees and native grasses as a barrier. This had been discussed in KC before as a solution. I believe a small fence was to be placed in the middle of the native plantings but remain mostly hidden.
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KC's riverfront front extension is using a chain link "fence" with native plantings to screen. Albeit, service speeds will be 'walking to jogging speed"

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Salt Lake elected for bollards on a very narrow ROW (60' total) on their S-Line. Top speed is 25mph. IMHO too slow for a line to Waldo


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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by smh »

langosta wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 8:31 pm
langosta wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 1:29 pm
Midtownkid wrote: Wed May 15, 2024 12:51 pm Those photos and renderings help. I can imagine this. Wonder if they would have to put up a fence to 'protect' people from the tracks? Aesthetically I like this open look. Having grass between the rails helps it maintain the boulevard look.
If streetcar hits the 40-55mph yes you’d likely need a barrier. Fence or planters.

I have done probably 30-40mph in Europe with no barriers.
KC's riverfront front extension is using a chain link "fence" with native plantings to screen. Albeit, service speeds will be 'walking to jogging speed"

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Is this still the riverfront design? I don't understand why we would put parked cars between the people and the shops.
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Re: Phase Three Streetcar Expansion

Post by langosta »

Well that parking exists today because there is a road. You can see the current riverfront plans online to confirm on the streetcar website. I’m not sure if it stays the same


I think further down is where the current want to do the board walk right on the park
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