DColeKC wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 4:08 pm
I sincerely believe that any downtown stadium is doomed if it relies on this metro to vote for it. Downtown is where you go to get your car stolen, stuck in traffic and get beat up by homeless people according to so many. We've not been able to change that misconception for two decades now.
Voters approved the Sprint Center 20 years ago. Union Station 30 years ago. Downtown's done nothing but improve since then. Face it, it was a terrible campaign. End of story. This is not an indictment on Kansas City voters.
It was a terrible campaign, but that's not the whole story. We've all seen the bullshit arguments about how downtown is this and that, all negative. We will never get the general public to vote for a sales tax to pay for anything that requires them to come downtown. The T-Mobile Center was a rental car and hotel tax, paid for by visitors. Easy yes on that one.
Union Station Renovation was a one time tax, no brainer.
That sprint center vote was far from easy. A LOT of people did not want that arena. There was a major effort to "save Kemper". It took major leadership from Barnes to make that happen and that was not even tax effecting locals.
I agree, people on this forum have blinders on (or just do not know?) when it comes to general county wide voter support for downtown KC. I thought people here knew what kind of city metro KC is outside the downtown core. Metro KC is like 2 million people that would rather live in a small town but are hear for jobs etc and a couple hundred thousand that actually want to go downtown and want it to be a vibrant bustling area. KC has always been that way.
Last edited by GRID on Wed Apr 03, 2024 4:50 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Voters approved the Sprint Center 20 years ago. Union Station 30 years ago. Downtown's done nothing but improve since then. Face it, it was a terrible campaign. End of story. This is not an indictment on Kansas City voters.
It was a terrible campaign, but that's not the whole story. We've all seen the bullshit arguments about how downtown is this and that, all negative. We will never get the general public to vote for a sales tax to pay for anything that requires them to come downtown. The T-Mobile Center was a rental car and hotel tax, paid for by visitors. Easy yes on that one.
Union Station Renovation was a one time tax, no brainer.
these teams and whomever is feeding them these excuses are more inept than it appeared during the campaign if they are now believing and using "ohh people are scared of downtown" as their reason for this failing. This is literally a bad half baked plan exposed. A solid plan out there for months with design and a good CBA would have been 65% yes.
Just yesterday you predicted it would pass.
Yeah and I'm eating shit today. I thought it would slide by. I'm one of downtown KC's biggest cheerleaders.
GRID wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 4:17 pm
I agree. If the vote were a near pass things would be different.
They got clobbered. In the city and in the suburbs.
The Royals may have dropped the ball but they also learned a lot from this vote. People in KC do not want a downtown stadium and if the Royals want to move downtown, they will have to find a way to do it without a general election vote.
this is not what they (should have) learned. I can't count how many people I've read said they wanted downtown baseball but this plan sucked. That's the lesson to learn, not that the location is poison.
I hope you're right. And the plan did suck. But I agree with GRID that the huge margin of this loss showed a real disinterest in downtown baseball in this car-brained city. Having lived in other cities (including DC), I think I overestimated how many people had a positive impression of what a downtown baseball stadium would look like. Even in Brookside, I heard a lot of "where will you park", "where will you tailgate", "it's so convenient", etc.
I think downtown Kansas City was unfortunately so hollowed out in the 70s-00s that it has become a niche concern for the metro population, rather than its central focus. I suppose it could be fine that for the foreseeable future Downtown KC remains a little place where cool restaurants and bars open up and there are a few art galleries and concert venues. But that vast majority of the regions' jobs and shopping opportunities (and sports) remain firmly in suburbia.
My main issue with that outcome is that I think it is fiscally unsustainable over the long run due to the inherently tax-negative development pattern of the suburbs.
DColeKC wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 4:41 pm
as a terrible campaign, but that's not the whole story. We've all seen the bullshit arguments about how downtown is this and that, all negative. We will never get the general public to vote for a sales tax to pay for anything that requires them to come downtown. The T-Mobile Center was a rental car and hotel tax, paid for by visitors. Easy yes on that one.
Union Station Renovation was a one time tax, no brainer.
There are less of those people today than there have ever been. I know numerous downtown proponents/residents that voted no on this. Not because of anything you're saying but because they thought this was a bad plan and the Royals did nothing to convince them otherwise. You can't blame this on suburbanites when urban KC voters voted it down by the same percentages. Stop making this about voters. It's about the teams' terrible plans and campaigns. Full stop. A visionary plan for Arrowhead and a competent plan for a downtown stadium would've passed easily.
Former Kansas House Speaker Ron Ryckman Jr., an Olathe Republican, is quietly working with unnamed parties interested in bringing the Kansas City Chiefs across the border, The Star has learned.
“Jackson County fumbled. Now there will be a mad scramble for the ball and we’re in the best position for a scoop and score,” Ryckman said in a text message to The Star.
If Kansas makes a significant push for the Chiefs, the team would have to weigh the offer against the prospect of going back to Jackson County voters again. After losing the sales tax vote, 58% to 42%, Chiefs president Mark Donovan and Royals owner John Sherman ignored a shouted question at a watch party Tuesday night about whether the teams will stay in the county. The campaign for the sales tax – formally called the Committee to Keep the Chiefs and Royals in Jackson County – had operated on the implied threat that one or both teams would leave if the ballot measure failed.
On Tuesday before the outcome of the vote was known, Missouri House Majority Leader Jonathan Patterson, a Lee’s Summit Republican, said he was very worried about the Chiefs leaving if the tax failed. But he also cast doubt on state funding for the teams. “I’m supportive of keeping the Royals and the Chiefs in Kansas City, but the state budget is required for a lot of different programs around the state and right now it’s very difficult to see how we could allocate money directly to the Chiefs and Royals for a new stadium,” said Patterson, who is also the likely next Missouri House speaker.
The Missouri House is poised to approve its version of a roughly $50 billion budget that does not include state funding for the Chiefs or Royals stadium projects. Missouri Senate Minority Leader John Rizzo, an Independence Democrat, said it would be “incredibly difficult” for the General Assembly to provide funding this year when Jackson County residents themselves voted down county-level aid.
It was a terrible campaign, but that's not the whole story. We've all seen the bullshit arguments about how downtown is this and that, all negative. We will never get the general public to vote for a sales tax to pay for anything that requires them to come downtown. The T-Mobile Center was a rental car and hotel tax, paid for by visitors. Easy yes on that one.
Union Station Renovation was a one time tax, no brainer.
these teams and whomever is feeding them these excuses are more inept than it appeared during the campaign if they are now believing and using "ohh people are scared of downtown" as their reason for this failing. This is literally a bad half baked plan exposed. A solid plan out there for months with design and a good CBA would have been 65% yes.
Just yesterday you predicted it would pass.
Yeah and I'm eating shit today. I thought it would slide by. I'm one of downtown KC's biggest cheerleaders.
What I was alluding to by that is there isn't all of a sudden this change in downtown opinion in one day.
GRID wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 4:17 pm
I agree. If the vote were a near pass things would be different.
They got clobbered. In the city and in the suburbs.
The Royals may have dropped the ball but they also learned a lot from this vote. People in KC do not want a downtown stadium and if the Royals want to move downtown, they will have to find a way to do it without a general election vote.
this is not what they (should have) learned. I can't count how many people I've read said they wanted downtown baseball but this plan sucked. That's the lesson to learn, not that the location is poison.
I hope you're right. And the plan did suck. But I agree with GRID that the huge margin of this loss showed a real disinterest in downtown baseball in this car-brained city. Having lived in other cities (including DC), I think I overestimated how many people had a positive impression of what a downtown baseball stadium would look like. Even in Brookside, I heard a lot of "where will you park", "where will you tailgate", "it's so convenient", etc.
I think downtown Kansas City was unfortunately so hollowed out in the 70s-00s that it has become a niche concern for the metro population, rather than its central focus. I suppose it could be fine that for the foreseeable future Downtown KC remains a little place where cool restaurants and bars open up and there are a few art galleries and concert venues. But that vast majority of the regions' jobs and shopping opportunities (and sports) remain firmly in suburbia.
My main issue with that outcome is that I think it is fiscally unsustainable over the long run due to the inherently tax-negative development pattern of the suburbs.
Showing the "parking" crowd how it would work is also part of the shit under developed plan. All they did was take a downtownkc parking map aerial and say look parking will be there. That's not enough. That's the type of plan I am talking about they need to roll out and have available for all to digest for awhile on like interactive websites. Needs to be more in the details than what they did.
CrossroadsUrbanApts wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 4:51 pm
I think I overestimated how many people had a positive impression of what a downtown baseball stadium would look like. Even in Brookside, I heard a lot of "where will you park", "where will you tailgate", "it's so convenient", etc.
That's not a negative impression of downtown, those are legitimate questions that the Royals didn't sufficiently answer. Any competent campaign would've produced a parking study showing how many spaces are available on nights and weekends including when events are happening at other venues. Instead, they just said "there are lots of spaces, you'll be fine." Hard to believe that didn't convince anyone...
And the first speculation of the departure of one of the teams is already hitting national news with the Dallas Mayor making statements about Dallas going after the Chiefs for a second NFL team in the Dallas area.
these teams and whomever is feeding them these excuses are more inept than it appeared during the campaign if they are now believing and using "ohh people are scared of downtown" as their reason for this failing. This is literally a bad half baked plan exposed. A solid plan out there for months with design and a good CBA would have been 65% yes.
Just yesterday you predicted it would pass.
Yeah and I'm eating shit today. I thought it would slide by. I'm one of downtown KC's biggest cheerleaders.
What I was alluding to by that is there isn't all of a sudden this change in downtown opinion in one day.
No, it's been something we as downtown supporters have battled for years. I don't know what percentage to assign to the shit job the teams did campaigning vs the anti-tax folks vs the save the crossroads crowd vs the downtown is scary crowd. I just know the downtown is scary crowd played a big role in this. I can't be mad at the voters who said NO over the other issues but I can be mad at the ones, likely in Eastern Jackson County that said no over misconceptions and fears of downtown.
This all just reminds me we need to figure out how to get over the hump on these folks who are uneducated about downtown.
Bummer the Royals didn't do better. What a freakin' missed opportunity for downtown.
CrossroadsUrbanApts wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 4:51 pm
I think I overestimated how many people had a positive impression of what a downtown baseball stadium would look like. Even in Brookside, I heard a lot of "where will you park", "where will you tailgate", "it's so convenient", etc.
That's not a negative impression of downtown, those are legitimate questions that the Royals didn't sufficiently answer. Any competent campaign would've produced a parking study showing how many spaces are available on nights and weekends including when events are happening at other venues. Instead, they just said "there are lots of spaces, you'll be fine." Hard to believe that didn't convince anyone...
Yes, you are completely correct about that. I'm only questioning whether the well is too poisoned at this point in time to come back to the same voters in six months or a year with a competently executed plan for downtown baseball. Votes don't switch easily. Nor do I think current team or city/county leadership capable of coming up with a better plan in the near future.
So either the Royals and the City find some other source of funding besides a county-wide sales tax, or KC downtown leaders need to start working on Sporting KC when they need a new stadium in 10 years...
Also, I didn't mean people in Brookside have a negative impression of downtown, more than they didn't see why a baseball stadium downtown would be to the benefit of downtown or the region as a whole. I can't blame them, the Royals did a terrible job of making a case for that, and the late switch to the Crossroads only highlighted the hollowness of their story.
Highlander wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 5:01 pm
And the first speculation of the departure of one of the teams is already hitting national news with the Dallas Mayor making statements about Dallas going after the Chiefs for a second NFL team in the Dallas area.
Already told my friend group I foresee a bidding war between Kansas and Texas for the Chiefs. I don't see Clark Hunt caring about the team in KC at all.
DColeKC wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 4:12 pm
Weird, the people who make these decisions disagree with you. Today at least.
Not sure how many times I'm going to have to explain how Cordish played a role here. They wanted downtown baseball, they didn't twist arms into the East Crossroads site. There was some nudging but it wasn't by Cordish.
Well, Cordish is out. I'm hoping the Royals choose a good partner for their development and go back to the original plan to fund with the revenue around the stadium. My only concern is that they won't realize that they need to come to the table with more resources. They're going to have to put up more money.
Last edited by beautyfromashes on Wed Apr 03, 2024 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Highlander wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 5:01 pm
And the first speculation of the departure of one of the teams is already hitting national news with the Dallas Mayor making statements about Dallas going after the Chiefs for a second NFL team in the Dallas area.
Already told my friend group I foresee a bidding war between Kansas and Texas for the Chiefs. I don't see Clark Hunt caring about the team in KC at all.
He will play the game but he cares deeply about Arrowhead. He should push it as hard as possible to get the state of Missouri to play ball. He should also come up with a much better plan.
Highlander wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 5:01 pm
And the first speculation of the departure of one of the teams is already hitting national news with the Dallas Mayor making statements about Dallas going after the Chiefs for a second NFL team in the Dallas area.
Already told my friend group I foresee a bidding war between Kansas and Texas for the Chiefs. I don't see Clark Hunt caring about the team in KC at all.
You guys need to take a Xanex. The Chiefs and Royals aren't leaving town. They sell out every game with tickets going for huge premiums over other cities. The fanbase is ferocious. Lamar Hunt history. Stop with this silly madness.
I just heard from two good sources of mine (who are tied to Kansas matters) that the Chiefs are looking to ink a deal in Kansas. At the Legends complex.
My guess? This is what Chiefs wanted all along, hence the half-ass plan they put out, probably hoping it would fail and get them an excuse to get out.
Highlander wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 5:01 pm
And the first speculation of the departure of one of the teams is already hitting national news with the Dallas Mayor making statements about Dallas going after the Chiefs for a second NFL team in the Dallas area.
TheUrbanRoo wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 6:22 pm
I just heard from two good sources of mine (who are tied to Kansas matters) that the Chiefs are looking to ink a deal in Kansas. At the Legends complex.
My guess? This is what Chiefs wanted all along, hence the half-ass plan they put out, probably hoping it would fail and get them an excuse to get out.
And honestly- this may be what's for the best. The Chiefs deserve a real legit complex & stadium, and only KS is gonna give them that properly.
WAY MORE importantly, this *might* be enough to then wake up Missouri to keep the Royals and fund it downtown if they watch the Chiefs leave. Perhaps KC voters will vote to fund the Royals downtown if they don't also have to pay for the Chiefs. Perhaps..
