Downtown Baseball Stadium

Discussion about new sports facilities in Kansas City
shinatoo
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by shinatoo »

beautyfromashes wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 2:21 pm
shinatoo wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 2:19 pm She didn't say it, she reposted someone else's rant about the loss. Still not great but....
No, this was her quote from the comments. Direct copy.
I see that now. My bad.

Also, WTF!?
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by phuqueue »

Highlander wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 9:16 am
phuqueue wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 8:55 am
KCPowercat wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 6:09 am

The only thing bad here was the plan and campaign by the chiefs and royals. They thought they could just roll out a half assed idea and everybidy would vote yes like they always have. They simply need to fully explain their vision and be consistent.
This is exactly right. People in this thread need to put away the embarrassing conspiracy theories that the teams secretly wanted this to fail so the Chiefs could go to Kansas or the Royals could go to Nashville or whatever. The yes campaign was not utterly incompetent because of some secret scheme to engineer a counterintuitive outcome, it was just the unbridled hubris of the teams to think taxpayers would write them whatever check they asked for without a second thought. I won't speculate on whether there is a version of this plan that taxpayers will approve, especially after having already been so poorly presented with this one, but I think that both the zero-effort rollout on the teams' part and the ultimate result are easily explicable. And whatever your feelings on what this particular project would have meant, and what its failure now means, for the city, I think it's ultimately a good thing that voters have demonstrated that they aren't just going to automatically approve ten-figure projects that have been cobbled together with all the thoughtfulness of a high school senior sleepwalking to graduation.
You guys give too much credit to the average voter. It came down to some very basic things like the irrational concerns about parking, traffic and crime downtown, anti-tax sentiment and subsidizing billionaires, concerns about people being displaced and the eastern part of the county protecting their interest. I've heard social media means nothing but the election fell right along the margins most of us were observing on social media. For every concern about the details of the plan I saw on social media (there weren't many) there were hundreds of posts regarding what I just listed. The Royals did an extremely poor job of even addressing those concerns as well but relatively few would have been swayed by a more complete plan that addressed the issues most forumers would have liked to have seen addressed. It's a far more fundamental problem and it's very definitely not ultimately a good thing.
Those very basic things would have been (or at least should have been) addressed in a more complete plan so that voters weren't left to fill in the blanks on all of the missing details themselves. I'm not saying that each no voter consciously thought to themselves that this plan wasn't thorough enough and they were going to punish the teams specifically for that, but if you don't tell people how you are going to handle parking or traffic or crime, their imaginations will tell them instead. And I'm not saying that I think parking or traffic or crime should have been the thing that sunk this vote -- I agree that these are irrational concerns, as KC has no traffic and an abundance of parking and thousands of suburbanites congregating at a baseball game are not typical crime victims -- but it was easily foreseeable that voters would be concerned about these things anyway. It's hard to convince voters that you know what you're doing on traffic when you can't even decide whether or not you're keeping a street open. I'm not interested in engaging in counterfactuals (especially not counterfactuals based on whatever you observed in the cesspool of social media), I won't claim to know whether the vote would or wouldn't have passed with a more complete plan, but I don't really think in any case that this plan deserved to pass. The teams cynically assumed voters would just give them whatever they wanted. Frankly I figured they were right. The credit I will give to the average voter is that the teams and I were wrong.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by CrossroadsUrbanApts »

A few stray thoughts on a disappointing outcome:

- The Royals and Chiefs leadership were amazingly incompetent in their actions and communications. I almost can't imagine a worse performance by teams not owned by Daniel Snyder or Donald Sterling. As someone said earlier, there was no good story told to voters on how this vote would benefit the teams and the region as a whole going forward. I don't fault voters for voting no given the sketchy plans and lack of information.

- The similar vote totals in Eastern Jackson County and in KCMO proper mean that the role of KC Tenants and Save the Crossroads was probably not huge. I don't see how KCT's arguments particularly swayed votes in East Jax. Instead it was most likely a combination of lingering anger at the County's property tax fiasco and concerns over parking/crime downtown that led to the lopsided margin.

- I definitely wondered at times why KCT was involved in this campaign at all, considering a tenuous-at-best connection with their stated goals and constituency. But clearly they have a wonderful nose for media attention and they hit a home run politically. They will be a political force for years to come, and will continue to push against any kind of public incentive for private development. Which will be generally anti-development in result.

- I think the vote was so lopsided that you can't reasonably expect to just come back again in a year with a better plan and expect to see a different result on a sales tax extension vote. This was blown too badly. I don't know what happens with the Chiefs but I think the Royals will either leave town (after Sherman sells them) or end up somewhere else other than either TSC or Jackson County. Chiefs want TSC to themselves and they'll want their own separate tax revenue source. Royals are on their own in any case.

- Personally I reserve my greatest ire for the political leadership of the city and county. This result absolutely proves they don't have what it takes to address the major issues facing the region. Given the relatively slow growth of the KC metro, I do see it as somewhat of a zero sum game between Downtown and the suburbs. If the Royals either leave the region or end up in a suburb, it will set Downtown back many years. All the momentum in the region (jobs/pop growth/education) seems to be on the Kansas side. When Sly was mayor, the general sense was the Downtown was "open for business." Things could get done. Now the overriding sense for everything development-related downtown is "no thanks, not if you expect to make any money on this."

- I don't know if I would call myself a doomer per se, because everything runs in cycles. But I do see a few moribund years for downtown until a new generation of leadership comes of age and decides to encourage investment in downtown again.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by Highlander »

shinatoo wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 2:19 pm
beautyfromashes wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 2:13 pm
unfortunately neither team will work with Jackson County again. They had been working behind the scenes for two years attempting to get a location approved. Which was I think Frank Whutes plan all along. In any case most unfortunate for sports fans in KC. The lack of leadership has lost the city two treasured assets. I mean if you don’t support the Chiefs after 3 Super Bowl wins why would they stay? We will be lucky if both teams wind up in Kansas. At least still in the area!
She didn't say it, she reposted John Lawrence Solomon's rant about the loss. Still not great but....
How do you know it was even her? FB is notorious for fake accounts. I cannot imagine someone in that position making a tone deaf post like that the day after an election even if it accurately portrays the most likely scenario.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by GRID »

beautyfromashes wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 2:13 pm
unfortunately neither team will work with Jackson County again. They had been working behind the scenes for two years attempting to get a location approved. Which was I think Frank Whutes plan all along. In any case most unfortunate for sports fans in KC. The lack of leadership has lost the city two treasured assets. I mean if you don’t support the Chiefs after 3 Super Bowl wins why would they stay? We will be lucky if both teams wind up in Kansas. At least still in the area!
And I will be taking down my Chiefs and Royals man cave memorabilia and rebranding it for the the Nationals and Capitals. I'll be done with Kansas City.

At least I won't have to correct people anymore when they say the Kansas Chiefs. Then again, I won't give enough shit to correct them either.
Last edited by GRID on Wed Apr 03, 2024 2:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by Metro »

Marnys post sounds like a family that deeply cared about the Crossroads & KCMO
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by KCPowercat »

DColeKC wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 1:12 pm
KCPowercat wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 12:43 pm Why wouldn't they cancel it, there isn't anything to agree around?
Exactly. Now they’ll just buy it up without all the contingencies. Or not. Who knows. A big can of worms has been opened but hey, maybe we bought a few local businesses a few more years before they naturally turn over into something else.
Man no reason to be nasty about small business. Most of us in here really want all our small businesses investing in downtown to succeed and makes downtown what it is and unique
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by beautyfromashes »

Highlander wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 2:28 pm How do you know it was even her? FB is notorious for fake accounts. I cannot imagine someone in that position making a tone deaf post like that the day after an election even if it accurately portrays the most likely scenario.
Why don’t you just go look for yourself? Search her name. Friends with the mayor. People posting on her birthday. Pictures of family. Could be fake but it looks pretty convincing. Or disregard it. Just putting it out there.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by mourban »

Real question- why would the Chiefs moving to Kansas by the racetrack be bad?

You could place it by the old Cerner building and use the space for team offices, the parking situation could be better formalized, and there are hotels, restaurants, entertainment and a casino nearby. The TSC site has none of this.

The Royals will end up near downtown KCMO or in another region. I don’t see how moving to KS is an improvement for them.

I still think this is the Plan B. Royals get funded by KCMO and the Chiefs pit MO v KS in a tax incentive battle and, depending on the structure, Missouri may actually be better off if the team ends up in KS.
Last edited by mourban on Wed Apr 03, 2024 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by KCPowercat »

That's her real account. I have enough connections closely to them to confirm. Not great idea to have her posting anything.

If it's not just rage posting doesn't sound like they will be going back to the county. Doesn't mean they are done with downtown or anything.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by chingon »

GRID wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 2:29 pm
beautyfromashes wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 2:13 pm
unfortunately neither team will work with Jackson County again. They had been working behind the scenes for two years attempting to get a location approved. Which was I think Frank Whutes plan all along. In any case most unfortunate for sports fans in KC. The lack of leadership has lost the city two treasured assets. I mean if you don’t support the Chiefs after 3 Super Bowl wins why would they stay? We will be lucky if both teams wind up in Kansas. At least still in the area!
And I will be taking down my Chiefs and Royals man cave memorabilia and rebranding it for the the Nationals and Capitals. I'll be done with Kansas City.

At least I won't have to correct people anymore when they say the Kansas Chiefs. Then again, I won't give enough shit to correct them either.
The NO side should have put this on a mailer and sent it to my house.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by Metro »

Dave why did the CCA wait until half way into yesterday before announcing an agreement with the Royals?
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by Highlander »

beautyfromashes wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 2:38 pm
Highlander wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 2:28 pm How do you know it was even her? FB is notorious for fake accounts. I cannot imagine someone in that position making a tone deaf post like that the day after an election even if it accurately portrays the most likely scenario.
Why don’t you just go look for yourself? Search her name. Friends with the mayor. People posting on her birthday. Pictures of family. Could be fake but it looks pretty convincing. Or disregard it. Just putting it out there.
It does appear to be her unless someone really badly wanted to impersonate her and even her friends and had a lot of time on their hands. Certainly should not be reposting that. I understand their frustration but they need to sit back and assess the situation before posting what is essentially a rant with a warning about moving the team. It may or may not reflect the ownership group sentiments but it will be taken as such. In fact, I'd probably be keeping my facebook page better protected if I was in that position.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by KCPowercat »

It's her.
shinatoo
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by shinatoo »

Highlander wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 2:57 pm
beautyfromashes wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 2:38 pm
Highlander wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 2:28 pm How do you know it was even her? FB is notorious for fake accounts. I cannot imagine someone in that position making a tone deaf post like that the day after an election even if it accurately portrays the most likely scenario.
Why don’t you just go look for yourself? Search her name. Friends with the mayor. People posting on her birthday. Pictures of family. Could be fake but it looks pretty convincing. Or disregard it. Just putting it out there.
It does appear to be her unless someone really badly wanted to impersonate her and even her friends and had a lot of time on their hands. Certainly should not be reposting that. I understand their frustration but they need to sit back and assess the situation before posting what is essentially a rant with a warning about moving the team. It may or may not reflect the ownership group sentiments but it will be taken as such. In fact, I'd probably be keeping my facebook page better protected if I was in that position.
Very in step with the PR acumen of all the owners involved though.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by beautyfromashes »

This feels a little bit like everything political: wait til the absolute last minute digging for the best deal on both sides. I expect we’ll get a stadium racing to be built before the stadium lease expires in 2031.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by KCDowntown »

Manny Abarca says teams met with governor of Kansas this morning.

EDIT: Just the Chiefs

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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by Metro »

KCDowntown wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 3:28 pm Manny Abarca says teams met with governor of Kansas this morning.

EDIT: Just the Chiefs

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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by GRID »

mourban wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 2:40 pm Real question- why would the Chiefs moving to Kansas by the racetrack be bad?

You could place it by the old Cerner building and use the space for team offices, the parking situation could be better formalized, and there are hotels, restaurants, entertainment and a casino nearby. The TSC site has none of this.

The Royals will end up near downtown KCMO or in another region. I don’t see how moving to KS is an improvement for them.

I still think this is the Plan B. Royals get funded by KCMO and the Chiefs pit MO v KS in a tax incentive battle and, depending on the structure, Missouri may actually be better off if the team ends up in KS.
Because it's just more of KCMO's culture, identity and economy moving to KS. People would actually be right when they say things like "all the players live in KS", "all the fans are from KS" etc. More out of town fans would stay in KS hotels. You are continuing to erode KCMO's importance as the core city of the metro. Village west is almost three times as far from downtown as the TSC and it's in a state that competes with KCMO more than it cooperates with KCMO.
Last edited by GRID on Wed Apr 03, 2024 3:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Downtown Baseball Stadium

Post by beautyfromashes »

KCDowntown wrote: Wed Apr 03, 2024 3:28 pm Manny Abarca says teams met with governor of Kansas this morning.

EDIT: Just the Chiefs

KCDowntown
Gotta say, Abarca seems like one of the biggest “the sky is falling!!!” people I’ve ever seen! Someone should teach him to negotiate. Poker face, Manny. And why is anyone surprised about the Chiefs running to the governor? You knew that would happen. Perhaps it lights a fire under Missouri to push in more.
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