Downtown Baseball Stadium

[beautyfromashes]

The idea that people start businesses merely to make money, that “the purpose of business is to maximize shareholder wealth” is pre-1990s business school drivel. No one I’ve known (myself included) EVER started a business to make money. They have dreams of building something amazing, to have a family business with their kids, to give people jobs, to have flexibility of life, to not be controlled. I’d say Cordish would even say the same. People start businesses because of passion. Ms Cockson seems to get that.

[DColeKC]

The idea that people start businesses merely to make money, that “the purpose of business is to maximize shareholder wealth” is pre-1990s business school drivel. No one I’ve known (myself included) EVER started a business to make money. They have dreams of building something amazing, to have a family business with their kids, to give people jobs, to have flexibility of life, to not be controlled. I’d say Cordish would even say the same. People start businesses because of passion. Ms Cockson seems to get that.

And you can afford to do this while losing money? Doing what you’re passionate about is admirable but no one, well almost no one can do this and not also generate a profit.

The dream is to do what you’re passionate about while also making a fucking pile of money. Anyone who says the profit portion isn’t important is lying.

[Highlander]

But being a successful business-owner doesn't mean someone has insight into the subject matter at hand.

Maybe not about the lack of development around TSC but she certainly has more insight into her business, patrons and neighborhood than you or the Royals. I think what she's saying isn't some insight into TSC but about the promises of how having a stadium nearby will lead to more and better business for the surrounding neighborhood. We have a baseball stadium in this town that clearly proves that that doesn't happen automatically. It needs to be the right set of circumstances to create that synergy and businesses that don't appeal to baseball fans will see very little benefit at best and be forced out of business at worst.

The idea there will be a corporate-led replacement of local organic businesses is ludicrous.

That's literally what's happening. Blocks of Grand and Oak are full of local businesses that will be torn down. The effect on the surrounding neighborhood can certainly be debated but the businesses inside the blast zone are certainly victims of a corporate-led replacement. I mean one of them is actually an "organic" business. Green Dirt Farm has been prepping their building to open a new restaurant and just as they're about to bear the fruits of their labor, they find out that actually the Royals' billionaire owner wants to put a stadium there.

It depends on the business. Some will do very well with the Royals nearby. The crossroad brewing community will definitely prosper. And no development occurred at TSC for the reasons I stated. A complete lack of critical mass and the city's ability to think any of that through. Something that has happened over and over again (e.g. Cerner offices in East KC). For once, we are on the verge of getting it right and people are in an uproar that a few businesses will be adversely impacted. We seem to have a cognitive dissonance issue in wanting growth for the city and then reeling about the consequences when the potential for that growth emerges. The same exact same would happen if we landed large corporations with big payrolls in downtown (like has happened in Austin). The fabric of the community starts to change. It's been that way in large cities throughout US history.

And your second statement is overhyped. A few businesses will replaced to make room for stadium. They will be compensated. I hate to sound callous but, again, that's something that happens all the time. The fabric of the crossroads is not going to be subject to wholesale changes. Most existing businesses will see an increase in business, especially the restaurant, bars and breweries.

I've been in the area and walked it enough to know that an East Village location, despite the land being available, was not going to be much better than TSC with the impact it was going to have on downtown. Too far from the entertainment areas of downtown, the streetcar, too peripheral, etc.. Of course Sherman was going to have an issue with that spot. I wouldn't have put my money into a stadium there either.

[TheBigChuckbowski]

It depends on the business. Some will do very well with the Royals nearby.

Yeah, some will and some will be worse off. There's more to the Crossroads than breweries.

A complete lack of critical mass and the city's ability to think any of that through.

And, so we're suddenly going to trust the city now? Why?

For once, we are on the verge of getting it right and people are in an uproar that a few businesses will be adversely impacted.

How do we know this is going to be done right? Based on a few renderings that are almost assuredly going to be substantially scaled back? Based on the Royals completely bumbling this process thus far? Based on a city and county that has a history of constant screw ups? What possibly gives anyone any confidence that this will "get it right"?

A few businesses will replaced to make room for stadium. They will be compensated.

We don't know that.

The fabric of the crossroads is not going to be subject to wholesale changes.

You can't say that. We don't even know what the actual plan is because there isn't one yet. All we have are a few pretty renderings.

[TheBigChuckbowski]

And you can afford to do this while losing money? Doing what you’re passionate about is admirable but no one, well almost no one can do this and not also generate a profit.

The dream is to do what you’re passionate about while also making a fucking pile of money. Anyone who says the profit portion isn’t important is lying.

Being important and being the only thing that matters are two COMPLETELY different things.

[Highlander]

It depends on the business. Some will do very well with the Royals nearby.

Yeah, some will and some will be worse off. There's more to the Crossroads than breweries.

A complete lack of critical mass and the city's ability to think any of that through.

And, so we're suddenly going to trust the city now? Why?

For once, we are on the verge of getting it right and people are in an uproar that a few businesses will be adversely impacted.

How do we know this is going to be done right? Based on a few renderings that are almost assuredly going to be substantially scaled back? Based on the Royals completely bumbling this process thus far? Based on a city and county that has a history of constant screw ups? What possibly gives anyone any confidence that this will "get it right"?

A few businesses will replaced to make room for stadium. They will be compensated.

We don't know that.

The fabric of the crossroads is not going to be subject to wholesale changes.

You can't say that. We don't even know what the actual plan is because there isn't one yet. All we have are a few pretty renderings.

To all of those: So what? There is uncertainty around everything. Every sizeable project ever built. A simple increase in competition from another source could also send every business in the area reeling. Where's the guarantee that nothing will change when we invest? I'd be a richer man today if we had that. These concerns are starting to sound like NIMBYism more than legitimate reasons for this not to happen. And it won't happen because there's no way it will be voted in. The bigger concern to me is what will happen if a new stadium isn't built downtown. The Royals are not going to opt for East Village if it fails. They will stay where they are until another entity offers them a better deal. And the crossroads can resume it's slow almost imperceptible growth like the downtown area it abuts and KC will have missed another generational opportunity.

[beautyfromashes]

The dream is to do what you’re passionate about while also making a fucking pile of money. Anyone who says the profit portion isn’t important is lying.

The "fucking pile of money" (god the annoyance with that statement), just doesn't play into it. You do it because you enjoy the challenge and the game, the feeling that you can take nothing but your wits and turn it into something beautiful. You keep doing it because you want to maintain that and leave a legacy. If you start a business with the main goal of making "a fucking pile of money", you will lose. Only people that haven't done it talk like that, they're also really bad romantic partners and parents.

[DColeKC]

The dream is to do what you’re passionate about while also making a fucking pile of money. Anyone who says the profit portion isn’t important is lying.

The "fucking pile of money" (god the annoyance with that statement), just doesn't play into it. You do it because you enjoy the challenge and the game, the feeling that you can take nothing but your wits and turn it into something beautiful. You keep doing it because you want to maintain that and leave a legacy. If you start a business with the main goal of making "a fucking pile of money", you will lose. Only people that haven't done it talk like that, they're also really bad romantic partners and parents.

Speak for yourself. Perhaps what makes a really bad parent is someone who is so selfish they put all their time into a passion project that barely pays the bills and they can't properly provide for their children because schools, grocery stores and colleges don't accept passion for payment. Maybe your kids will learn how to be passionate folks who don't care about money from you or maybe they'll hate your guts for not setting them up for a more successful life.

I own my own business. I'm lucky to do something I'm very passionate about and get to be involved in things that many people would only dream of. I'm not rich, I didn't get into to make money but making more is always on my mind. Money is how this country often measures success, you can not like it but you've got to deal with it.

"Daddy, why don't we have nice things?" "Because hun, Daddy is passionate about the challenge and the game. Daddy doesn't want to work for big bad corporate American, so please suffer so I can be a prideful prick."

[Highlander]

The dream is to do what you’re passionate about while also making a fucking pile of money. Anyone who says the profit portion isn’t important is lying.

The "fucking pile of money" (god the annoyance with that statement), just doesn't play into it. You do it because you enjoy the challenge and the game, the feeling that you can take nothing but your wits and turn it into something beautiful. You keep doing it because you want to maintain that and leave a legacy. If you start a business with the main goal of making "a fucking pile of money", you will lose. Only people that haven't done it talk like that, they're also really bad romantic partners and parents.

The dream is to do what you’re passionate about while also making a fucking pile of money. Anyone who says the profit portion isn’t important is lying.

The "fucking pile of money" (god the annoyance with that statement), just doesn't play into it. You do it because you enjoy the challenge and the game, the feeling that you can take nothing but your wits and turn it into something beautiful. You keep doing it because you want to maintain that and leave a legacy. If you start a business with the main goal of making "a fucking pile of money", you will lose. Only people that haven't done it talk like that, they're also really bad romantic partners and parents.

Speak for yourself. Perhaps what makes a really bad parent is someone who is so selfish they put all their time into a passion project that barely pays the bills and they can't properly provide for their children because schools, grocery stores and colleges don't accept passion for payment. Maybe your kids will learn how to be passionate folks who don't care about money from you or maybe they'll hate your guts for not setting them up for a more successful life.

I own my own business. I'm lucky to do something I'm very passionate about and get to be involved in things that many people would only dream of. I'm not rich, I didn't get into to make money but making more is always on my mind. Money is this country often measures success, you can not like it but you've got to deal with it.

"Daddy, why don't we have nice things?" "Because hun, Daddy is passionate about the challenge and the game. Daddy doesn't want to work for big bad corporate American, so please suffer so I can be a prideful prick."

Good god. Can we have a discussion without the nonsensical personal attacks as if you guys actually knew each other. It detracts from everything.

[TheBigChuckbowski]

To all of those: So what? There is uncertainty around everything. Every sizeable project ever built. A simple increase in competition from another source could also send every business in the area reeling. Where's the guarantee that nothing will change when we invest? I'd be a richer man today if we had that. These concerns are starting to sound like NIMBYism more than legitimate reasons for this not to happen. And it won't happen because there's no way it will be voted in. The bigger concern to me is what will happen if a new stadium isn't built downtown. The Royals are not going to opt for East Village if it fails. They will stay where they are until another entity offers them a better deal. And the crossroads can resume it's slow almost imperceptible growth like the downtown area it abuts and KC will have missed another generational opportunity.

You're right. Things change and there's no guarantees. My issue is with the undeserved optimism and lack of deserved skepticism. So many here seem perfectly content to throw away everything we've known and seen about how the Royals, city and county operate because they have stars in their eyes about the potential of this. And, I agree that it has potential. But, there are a million hurdles in the way for this to be done right and to just ignore those hurdles, ignore all of the negative consequences that are already being discussed and just assume it's going to be "done right" and it'll all be worth it is nonsensical to me. It goes against all lived experience having observed and participated in this city for decades.

I also don't believe the notion for a second that the second option for the Royals is to abandon Kansas City or remain at Kauffman. Does Sherman just jump at the first business opportunity put in front of him, no matter how little information there is, no matter how little confidence he has in the business or plan? I seriously doubt it. I bet he negotiates. I bet he turns down deals all the times only for people to come back to the table with something better. The Shermans and Hunts know how this works. We are not at the Oakland Raiders stage of a hostage negotiation. We aren't at the point where we take the offer or leave it. Maybe we'll have way more information by April but, at this point, the strategy seems to be to put out some pretty renderings and make some vague promises so it'll pass. That's not good enough for me.

[DColeKC]

The dream is to do what you’re passionate about while also making a fucking pile of money. Anyone who says the profit portion isn’t important is lying.

The "fucking pile of money" (god the annoyance with that statement), just doesn't play into it. You do it because you enjoy the challenge and the game, the feeling that you can take nothing but your wits and turn it into something beautiful. You keep doing it because you want to maintain that and leave a legacy. If you start a business with the main goal of making "a fucking pile of money", you will lose. Only people that haven't done it talk like that, they're also really bad romantic partners and parents.

The "fucking pile of money" (god the annoyance with that statement), just doesn't play into it. You do it because you enjoy the challenge and the game, the feeling that you can take nothing but your wits and turn it into something beautiful. You keep doing it because you want to maintain that and leave a legacy. If you start a business with the main goal of making "a fucking pile of money", you will lose. Only people that haven't done it talk like that, they're also really bad romantic partners and parents.

Speak for yourself. Perhaps what makes a really bad parent is someone who is so selfish they put all their time into a passion project that barely pays the bills and they can't properly provide for their children because schools, grocery stores and colleges don't accept passion for payment. Maybe your kids will learn how to be passionate folks who don't care about money from you or maybe they'll hate your guts for not setting them up for a more successful life.

I own my own business. I'm lucky to do something I'm very passionate about and get to be involved in things that many people would only dream of. I'm not rich, I didn't get into to make money but making more is always on my mind. Money is this country often measures success, you can not like it but you've got to deal with it.

"Daddy, why don't we have nice things?" "Because hun, Daddy is passionate about the challenge and the game. Daddy doesn't want to work for big bad corporate American, so please suffer so I can be a prideful prick."

Good god. Can we have a discussion without the nonsensical personal attacks as if you guys actually knew each other. It detracts from everything.

I agree! I never start it but hey, if someone is going to try and imply I'm a bad parent I'm going to let it rip. I'd literally smack someone in person for the same accusation.

[moderne]

Good thing you all aren't teens with guns. I hope you would not literally smack someone in person over words.
How about When they go low we go high..

[Highlander]

First of all, the voting has already began (Absentee votes) so a certain percentage of voters are not going to be swayed by continuing arguments for and against.

Secondly, an East Village site has all the potential negative consequences that an East Crossroads site has. They are just different. In the East Crossroads it's more about community investment in a poor overall location. A mistake KC has made many times before. Weigh the differences, consequences and likely outcomes and decide.

If a vote fails, there is no way the Royal's ownership group will approach Jackson County with a downtown stadium again. Not for a few generations. The best you could ever hope for is that the vote goes well in KCMO and they try to remake the deal as a KC only affair. I do think the Royals will entertain offers by Wyandotte County and Johnson County if the vote fails. It keeps the team in KC but the opportunity for a downtown stadium is lost in our lifetimes.

The Royals, however, are the 27th of 30th MLB teams in terms of value. They make money in their current state but not enough to allow them to improve the team substantially from any way other than the MLB draft. The value of several other teams are many more times the value of the Royals. A larger city (or city with a greater viewing area or deeper pocketed ownership group) would increase the value of the Royals substantially. Owners that feel they are locked into the status quo in KC would almost certainly consider offers that are twice the current value of the team. I think it's being in denial to think otherwise. A no vote on the stadium is going to put the Royals by default as one of the more vulnerable franchises in baseball (e.g., The stadium vote is getting a fair amount of attention in Nashville media).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbes_li ... _MLB_clubs

[DColeKC]

Good thing you all aren't teens with guns. I hope you would not literally smack someone in person over words.
How about When they go low we go high..

I think we're all adults here. Too many in here get away with being keyboard warriors and question a persons parenting ability over a comment that is not even in the same stratosphere. I'm by far the most personally attacked person on here, blame me for letting it get to me all you'd like. Doesn't make it any less offensive.

If we could stick to the topics and leave the uncalled for personal insults off the table, that would make this conversation much more lucrative.

[DMNBT_RCJH]

I’ll be voting yes.

Nothing is ever certain, but I feel more confident in this site than EV. What I am certain of, however, is that the “baseball people are not it for us” comment is going to hurt the messaging for that group—and already has.

[KCPowercat]

Missing a lot posted here, the reason I posted her quote is to show while property owners may have been contacted, it appears the businesses if they were even contacted, were not told the truth. I find her story credible as she is witness to another business being told that, to which they could easily say she was incorrect. I'll trust two independent businesses saying the same thing vs. the city manager (who I really like) coming out saying "I didn't say it that way"

It's typical how this city operates and honestly every city with a big project like this, but these businesses are what we are trying to protect so it stings more when they are lied to or not told anything at all. they are getting their livelihoods ripped up from under them, I'll give them some grace for coming off abrupt.

Let's see what the city or royals do to help them out. I don't even know if there is anything they can do. This project is going to shoot up property values and hence rents and few of them can probably survive that in the crossroads, which is exactly what we were fearing in this location but it kept getting gaslighted here that "look there is only the Star building and a UHaul and surface lots". I couldn't care less about the Abbott's of the world, they are getting their payday and I don't bemoan them for getting paid for taking a risk.

[TheUrbanRoo]

Waits 20 years to finally get a downtown stadium and KC and this forum is now the leading group against it. Un-fucking-believable.

[KCPowercat]

Waits 20 years to finally get a downtown stadium and KC and this forum is now the leading group against it. Un-fucking-believable.

Might tell you something about the plan. Also in no way is this whole forum anywhere close to saying we are against it much less the leading group but I appreciate the hyperbole. I'm leaning to a yes. Tell you right now they should be happy the Chiefs will drag them to victory, this plan has a lot of detractors for a lot of different reasons, not that those reasons can't be answered by April.

[DColeKC]

Waits 20 years to finally get a downtown stadium and KC and this forum is now the leading group against it. Un-fucking-believable.

From my count there are more for it than against on this forum. I’m even counting the one person who will be voting no simply due to my support!

[TheBigChuckbowski]

Waits 20 years to finally get a downtown stadium and KC and this forum is now the leading group against it. Un-fucking-believable.

I know. It's pretty unbelievable that the Royals could conjure up a site plan that I wouldn't support.

That said, I'm a no now but I could be swayed to a yes but the Royals have a lot of work to do. First, closing Oak and Walnut is a non-starter due to the unimaginable damage that will do to streetcar operations, not just on gamedays but every day, just as we're opening the extension to UMKC. And, it won't just slow streetcars to a crawl through downtown, it will delay everything south of Truman as well. I just can't possibly get on board with a plan that will move so much traffic to Main while at the same time increasing downtown traffic as a whole. It's a recipe for total gridlock on Main at certain times, which could make the streetcar unusable. Why invest so much in such a great asset and then come up with a plan that will make it non-functional?

Second, I need to see way more of a plan than just some renderings and promises. What are they building on day one? What do they have funded? How they are planning on funding the rest? What needs government approval? I want to see everything on the table. If we get a basic stadium with no 670 cap, no additional development, with an outfield view of the longlines building, a decimated East Crossroads and a streetcar that doesn't work, I don't see how that's possibly worth the taxpayer investment or better for downtown. Same goes for what they're doing with Arrowhead, we need a concrete plan.