OFFICIAL - Buck O'Neil Bridge

[GRID]

Still hate the way this project was designed. I still don't get why downtown KC needed another high speed limited access interstate standard bridge and more flyover ramps. But what is done is done I guess.

169 should have been disconnected from the freeway loop entirely and the grade in the area cleaned up to make it more pedestrian friendly and the new bridge should have been anything other than another typical Modot flat girder bridge with a sidewalk.

But then again, they can't even get the lights to work on the Bond Bridge so...

[moderne]

Maybe if they had built the bond bridge with an extra lane on each side it would not have been needed. Interesting how MODOT constructed this bridge compared to another 2 bridge crossing on I-70 at Rocheport. At Rocheport the bridges share a 3 legged support while the BOB each span has its own set of 2 supports

[GRID]

KC is VERY lucky the Bond bridge is also not another typical modot girder. You can thank Mayor Barnes for making sure it didn't happen because that is all Modot was going to build.

But yeah, the Bond bridge should have been built with 8 through lanes if not 10 and the east side of the loop should have been rebuilt along with the new bridge. Downtown KC needs to concentrate all the big interstate traffic into as few corridors as possible, not as many as possible like they are doing.

I still don't see how the west side of the loop is going to handle all the extra traffic when the new Broadway bridge basically becomes I-35 Alt.

[KCPowercat]

Respectfully I've watched a CP meeting and it's all the old guard shouting down any new idea because they know better for some of the very reasons you've posted. Very disappointing. Hope something like a consultant could help but generally consultants don't get a lot of their ideas believed as there is a lot of distrust (some deserved for sure)

[dnweava]

Once the Royals move downtown, you are going to have several thousand people using this HOA bridge between 10-11pm after the games end from people driving home. Do you really want to dump all that traffic (and you know some will be buzzed/drunk...) into the neighborhood late at night 70-80 days per year?

The 10th street to 29N onramp is a deathtrap that most refuse to use and the EV drawings show it going away anyways. so if you are leaving the east side of downtown then HOA is by far the quickest/easiest way to get to the northland and people are going to take the path of least resistance. Some people will go over to Broadway or Paseo but just look at traffic patterns now, at 5pm rush hour, the majority of people that work in the government district and live northland take the HOA bridge home.

Also, nobody has addressed my concern about the steepness of the road that I brought up like a year ago. 8th/Locust is at 930 ft elevation while 5th/Cherry is down at 820ft. Literally a 110ft drop over 1800 ft. By dropping Locust down to grade before connecting with the HOA you will have around a 6-7% grade which is both a concern for building accessible (ADA compliant) sidewalks/crosswalks and having a lot of traffic on a steep road isn't ideal in wet/snowy conditions. Remember that by making the intersections nearly flat which is a requirement, the street between them will have to be even more steep than that. City busses already have trouble with that hill in the winter and needs to made less steep, not more...

[Belvidere]

Respectfully I've watched a CP meeting and it's all the old guard shouting down any new idea because they know better for some of the very reasons you've posted. Very disappointing. Hope something like a consultant could help but generally consultants don't get a lot of their ideas believed as there is a lot of distrust (some deserved for sure)

They shoot down ideas often because they've already tried them in the past or they know the downsides. I have watched new people then build relationships, try different approach, and successfully get exactly what they want.

And here's the kicker: sometimes when they get what they want, the downsides they were warned about actually happen. You may not like the style or the tone, but when you go underneath that and look at the substance, you can learn a lot.

If the city is going to be diverse, then it has to have something for everyone, and one group's vision may not be the correct one. You may like to visit cities and see things like baseball stadiums and P&L.

I personally don't. I like to visit quirky neighborhoods. That's one of the things I like about Kansas City the most. I don't want everything to be similar. The mallification of downtowns is a real problem, as is the unintended consequences of infrastructure projects that don't have the effect people expect. I live in a community with profound scar tissue in terms of infrastructure and failed policy.

I'm not telling you all this to be combative. I know you are smart and dedicated people, very passionate. I appreciate that. Unfortunately, smart people are not always empathetic.

Meanwhile, I have to figure out if we can build more townhomes because fire department regulations are not friendly to urban infill, and the project we had hoped to get started may be dead in the water.

[KCPowercat]

Where have we tore down a highway before and brought it to grid where they would know the downsides?

[moderne]

Northbound traffic now crossing the old Broadway bridge will be switched to the new southbound BOB any day now. This will enable the old bridge to start coming down so the new northbound bridge approaches at the airport end can be constructed.

[Highlander]

Once the Royals move downtown, you are going to have several thousand people using this HOA bridge between 10-11pm after the games end from people driving home. Do you really want to dump all that traffic (and you know some will be buzzed/drunk...) into the neighborhood late at night 70-80 days per year?

The 10th street to 29N onramp is a deathtrap that most refuse to use and the EV drawings show it going away anyways. so if you are leaving the east side of downtown then HOA is by far the quickest/easiest way to get to the northland and people are going to take the path of least resistance. Some people will go over to Broadway or Paseo but just look at traffic patterns now, at 5pm rush hour, the majority of people that work in the government district and live northland take the HOA bridge home.

Also, nobody has addressed my concern about the steepness of the road that I brought up like a year ago. 8th/Locust is at 930 ft elevation while 5th/Cherry is down at 820ft. Literally a 110ft drop over 1800 ft. By dropping Locust down to grade before connecting with the HOA you will have around a 6-7% grade which is both a concern for building accessible (ADA compliant) sidewalks/crosswalks and having a lot of traffic on a steep road isn't ideal in wet/snowy conditions. Remember that by making the intersections nearly flat which is a requirement, the street between them will have to be even more steep than that. City busses already have trouble with that hill in the winter and needs to made less steep, not more...

All good points. But Kansas City's downtown neighborhoods are so incredibly sliced and diced that it really limits downtown neighborhoods from being what they could be due to lack of cohesiveness and no room for growth. It hurts the city. Even in highway happy Texas, Dallas and Houston do not have anywhere that density of limited-access roads around their downtown. Because the approach to HOA is not at grade, the giant cloverleaf at north loop and the HOA approaches is forced into existence eating up a significant amount of land in the combined Columbus Park/River Market area (which could be further increased by eliminating the Troost cloverleaf). N-S I-29 is already a disaster that needs to be addressed and fixing that (and there is room to fix it) would alleviate the 10th street on ramp issue and fix the back ups on US71 coming into downtown or continuing north. Steep roads exist in a lot of cities, I don't think that's a huge issue nor is the traffic on HOA north. If the HOA approach was at grade and with lights, people might start using I-29.

The highways in that area need a complete revamp with an appreciation for other factors than just moving cars along faster. The BOB was built with the same mindset of moving traffic along more efficiently trumps all else and we lost a couple more precious streets in the RM because of that.

[KCPowercat]

Anybody drove the new bridge portion yet? I don't think I've been less excited for a bridge as I am with this one. Needed to be done I understand that but so boring.

[Belvidere]

Once the Royals move downtown, you are going to have several thousand people using this HOA bridge between 10-11pm after the games end from people driving home. Do you really want to dump all that traffic (and you know some will be buzzed/drunk...) into the neighborhood late at night 70-80 days per year?

The 10th street to 29N onramp is a deathtrap that most refuse to use and the EV drawings show it going away anyways. so if you are leaving the east side of downtown then HOA is by far the quickest/easiest way to get to the northland and people are going to take the path of least resistance. Some people will go over to Broadway or Paseo but just look at traffic patterns now, at 5pm rush hour, the majority of people that work in the government district and live northland take the HOA bridge home.

Also, nobody has addressed my concern about the steepness of the road that I brought up like a year ago. 8th/Locust is at 930 ft elevation while 5th/Cherry is down at 820ft. Literally a 110ft drop over 1800 ft. By dropping Locust down to grade before connecting with the HOA you will have around a 6-7% grade which is both a concern for building accessible (ADA compliant) sidewalks/crosswalks and having a lot of traffic on a steep road isn't ideal in wet/snowy conditions. Remember that by making the intersections nearly flat which is a requirement, the street between them will have to be even more steep than that. City busses already have trouble with that hill in the winter and needs to made less steep, not more...

All good points. But Kansas City's downtown neighborhoods are so incredibly sliced and diced that it really limits downtown neighborhoods from being what they could be due to lack of cohesiveness and no room for growth. It hurts the city. Even in highway happy Texas, Dallas and Houston do not have anywhere that density of limited-access roads around their downtown. Because the approach to HOA is not at grade, the giant cloverleaf at north loop and the HOA approaches is forced into existence eating up a significant amount of land in the combined Columbus Park/River Market area (which could be further increased by eliminating the Troost cloverleaf). N-S I-29 is already a disaster that needs to be addressed and fixing that (and there is room to fix it) would alleviate the 10th street on ramp issue and fix the back ups on US71 coming into downtown or continuing north. Steep roads exist in a lot of cities, I don't think that's a huge issue nor is the traffic on HOA north. If the HOA approach was at grade and with lights, people might start using I-29.

The highways in that area need a complete revamp with an appreciation for other factors than just moving cars along faster. The BOB was built with the same mindset of moving traffic along more efficiently trumps all else and we lost a couple more precious streets in the RM because of that.

Here is an interesting wrinkle: Columbus Park and Pendleton Heights have been in a planning process for a pedestrian bridge over the railroad tracks to reach the riverfront. It was very exciting.

But that's only one option. The other two focus more on vehicular traffic, including a new car bridge with pedestrian/bicycle to the side. They especially wanted it from 3rd Street to the riverfront, as Lydia was expensive. What could happen after games? Everyone who wants to reach 35 South would take a Columbus Park shortcut.

So even as people are advocating for greater connectivity and fewer vehicles, there are pressures coming from the other side.

[KCPowercat]

Yeah no car bridge, just ped/bike. Cars can wait for the trains.

[dnweava]

Anybody drove the new bridge portion yet? I don't think I've been less excited for a bridge as I am with this one. Needed to be done I understand that but so boring.

I took it yesterday. Boring, yes. But it felt 100 times more safe than driving over the old bridge. just having shoulders and not having that sharp curve at the airport end of the bridge makes it such a massive improvement.

Side rant: I took Broadway to get on it at 4:30pm, and even though Broadway is supposed to be no parking from 4-6, there was at least 8 or 9 cars parked on the street. They need to make it either permanent parking or a permanent driving lane, rush hour driving lanes do not work in KC. I'm going to keep using HOA to go north, traffic flows so much quicker down Burlington than it does trying to cut over to Broadway.

[Cratedigger]

Once the Royals move downtown, you are going to have several thousand people using this HOA bridge between 10-11pm after the games end from people driving home. Do you really want to dump all that traffic (and you know some will be buzzed/drunk...) into the neighborhood late at night 70-80 days per year?

The 10th street to 29N onramp is a deathtrap that most refuse to use and the EV drawings show it going away anyways. so if you are leaving the east side of downtown then HOA is by far the quickest/easiest way to get to the northland and people are going to take the path of least resistance. Some people will go over to Broadway or Paseo but just look at traffic patterns now, at 5pm rush hour, the majority of people that work in the government district and live northland take the HOA bridge home.

Also, nobody has addressed my concern about the steepness of the road that I brought up like a year ago. 8th/Locust is at 930 ft elevation while 5th/Cherry is down at 820ft. Literally a 110ft drop over 1800 ft. By dropping Locust down to grade before connecting with the HOA you will have around a 6-7% grade which is both a concern for building accessible (ADA compliant) sidewalks/crosswalks and having a lot of traffic on a steep road isn't ideal in wet/snowy conditions. Remember that by making the intersections nearly flat which is a requirement, the street between them will have to be even more steep than that. City busses already have trouble with that hill in the winter and needs to made less steep, not more...

All good points. But Kansas City's downtown neighborhoods are so incredibly sliced and diced that it really limits downtown neighborhoods from being what they could be due to lack of cohesiveness and no room for growth. It hurts the city. Even in highway happy Texas, Dallas and Houston do not have anywhere that density of limited-access roads around their downtown. Because the approach to HOA is not at grade, the giant cloverleaf at north loop and the HOA approaches is forced into existence eating up a significant amount of land in the combined Columbus Park/River Market area (which could be further increased by eliminating the Troost cloverleaf). N-S I-29 is already a disaster that needs to be addressed and fixing that (and there is room to fix it) would alleviate the 10th street on ramp issue and fix the back ups on US71 coming into downtown or continuing north. Steep roads exist in a lot of cities, I don't think that's a huge issue nor is the traffic on HOA north. If the HOA approach was at grade and with lights, people might start using I-29.

The highways in that area need a complete revamp with an appreciation for other factors than just moving cars along faster. The BOB was built with the same mindset of moving traffic along more efficiently trumps all else and we lost a couple more precious streets in the RM because of that.

Here is an interesting wrinkle: Columbus Park and Pendleton Heights have been in a planning process for a pedestrian bridge over the railroad tracks to reach the riverfront. It was very exciting.

But that's only one option. The other two focus more on vehicular traffic, including a new car bridge with pedestrian/bicycle to the side. They especially wanted it from 3rd Street to the riverfront, as Lydia was expensive. What could happen after games? Everyone who wants to reach 35 South would take a Columbus Park shortcut.

So even as people are advocating for greater connectivity and fewer vehicles, there are pressures coming from the other side.

Agree ped/bike is the way to go.

The best argument I've heard from the "pressures coming from the other side" is that having some form of vehicle access from the river to the east bottoms - especially if it can also take advantage of any traffic coming from the west bottoms - helps justify federal funding for grants that can build the bridge

[Belvidere]

All good points. But Kansas City's downtown neighborhoods are so incredibly sliced and diced that it really limits downtown neighborhoods from being what they could be due to lack of cohesiveness and no room for growth. It hurts the city. Even in highway happy Texas, Dallas and Houston do not have anywhere that density of limited-access roads around their downtown. Because the approach to HOA is not at grade, the giant cloverleaf at north loop and the HOA approaches is forced into existence eating up a significant amount of land in the combined Columbus Park/River Market area (which could be further increased by eliminating the Troost cloverleaf). N-S I-29 is already a disaster that needs to be addressed and fixing that (and there is room to fix it) would alleviate the 10th street on ramp issue and fix the back ups on US71 coming into downtown or continuing north. Steep roads exist in a lot of cities, I don't think that's a huge issue nor is the traffic on HOA north. If the HOA approach was at grade and with lights, people might start using I-29.

The highways in that area need a complete revamp with an appreciation for other factors than just moving cars along faster. The BOB was built with the same mindset of moving traffic along more efficiently trumps all else and we lost a couple more precious streets in the RM because of that.

Here is an interesting wrinkle: Columbus Park and Pendleton Heights have been in a planning process for a pedestrian bridge over the railroad tracks to reach the riverfront. It was very exciting.

But that's only one option. The other two focus more on vehicular traffic, including a new car bridge with pedestrian/bicycle to the side. They especially wanted it from 3rd Street to the riverfront, as Lydia was expensive. What could happen after games? Everyone who wants to reach 35 South would take a Columbus Park shortcut.

So even as people are advocating for greater connectivity and fewer vehicles, there are pressures coming from the other side.

Agree ped/bike is the way to go.

The best argument I've heard from the "pressures coming from the other side" is that having some form of vehicle access from the river to the east bottoms - especially if it can also take advantage of any traffic coming from the west bottoms - helps justify federal funding for grants that can build the bridge

Ah. Interesting. We didn't get that far. That makes sense.

I can understand their point of view, but I don't know how to avoid a neighborhood becoming a shortcut. I certainly don't want to inhibit the advancement of the East Bottoms. We hadn't talked about a West Bottoms connection. It would be helpful to expand the view a little bit and see where all the connections need to be made. Thanks for mentioning that.

It may be a moot point because I don't know if the railroads will agree to move any tracks.

I did like the Lydia option, but it just may be too much money.

The thing is, if we did it right, the bridge itself would become real estate and a potential event space.

[GRID]

I love it. I mean I can't say anything bad about it or I hate KC. This will be great for Downtown KC to have another major limited access freeway bypass!

Now commuters no longer have to even tap their brakes to fly past downtown. Just like all the other routes!

And the bridge itself is amazing. No airplanes can hit it! And it looks like the 435 bridges over the river too! Consistency is good!

[KCPowercat]

I love it. I mean I can't say anything bad about it or I hate KC. This will be great for Downtown KC to have another major limited access freeway bypass!

Now commuters no longer have to even tap their brakes to fly past downtown. Just like all the other routes!

And the bridge itself is amazing. No airplanes can hit it! And it looks like the 435 bridges over the river too! Consistency is good!

Guys I think this is sarcasm!

Grid I just don't agree that forcing people to drive through downtown provides downtown with on iota of benefit. "feeling busier" isn't a benefit.

[GRID]

I love it. I mean I can't say anything bad about it or I hate KC. This will be great for Downtown KC to have another major limited access freeway bypass!

Now commuters no longer have to even tap their brakes to fly past downtown. Just like all the other routes!

And the bridge itself is amazing. No airplanes can hit it! And it looks like the 435 bridges over the river too! Consistency is good!

Guys I think this is sarcasm!

Grid I just don't agree that forcing people to drive through downtown provides downtown with on iota of benefit. "feeling busier" isn't a benefit.

I was not talking about making downtown busier and I think you know that. I have never proposed routing highway traffic onto downtown city streets just to make downtown feel busier. I have only stated that because there are not really any through streets (not highways, but streets), there is little traffic.

I'll go back to Denver as an example again. You can get go from any neighborhood on any side of downtown Denver to the other side of downtown Denver on surface streets and most of the time it's faster. I'm not talking about people going from DEN airport to Golden, but people traveling in the downtown area. That's not the case in KC with the geography and the highways and the fact that downtown KC is more surrounded by industry (or what was once industry) than dense urban neighborhoods. Only to the east is there a sizeable attached neighborhood. Even then people use highways to go from west bottoms to river market or Old NE to Crossroads or West side to Columbus park. It's ridiculous.

My idea all along was to discourage through traffic from wanting to use 169 and Broadway. Make it harder to use the Broadway bridge if you are just using it for a bypass. If you are coming from KCI or the northland, using the actual interstate system is barely any additional time.

Don't even have a connection to the north loop at all. People will learn it will be faster to take 29 or even Route 9 vs driving through downtown to get back on 35 south or SW Trafficway. Then you use the Broadway Bridge for traffic who's destination is downtown. You get rid of the little back ups that happen at Broadway and the North loop. You bring everything in that area down to more of a pedestrian scale. People can then take the Downtown Route mostly for going into the city, not for the one minute shortcut to 35 south.

And then you design, fund and build a bridge that is exciting and a destination within itself. Light it up, make in an architectural addition to the city. Tie the new bridge to Berkley Park by building a connection along the river and making it part of the new bridge project.

Making 169 another interstate through downtown was totally unnecessary and was terrible urban planning. And then building a cheap off the shelf girder bridge for one of Downtown's grand entry points just makes it even worse.

The city and the state dropped the ball pretty bad here.

[langosta]

I think I prefer having saved the costs of building a trophy bridge.

[TheLastGentleman]

I think I prefer having saved the costs of building a trophy bridge.

Where will we see the money we saved