Can someone please show me this mysterious google maps data which utilizes user info for those who have opted into "location services"? The one image posted claiming this area is so busy included the west side of Grand that has a popular concert venue, massively popular coffee shop and very busy event space. I'd love to see the data without that part of Grand because there's simply no way the east side of Grand between Truman and 17th is even 1/20th as busy as the west side. This block, to the east of Grand isn't even remotely close to being one of the busiest blocks in the city and while I've used anecdotal information up to this point, my eyes don't deceive me. I'd post the view from my apartment window but I'm afraid a few of you would figure out which unit is mine and stare at me in between Candy and Lexi's routines!TheBigChuckbowski wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 2:58 pmThe difference, of course, being that anyone talking about demolishing P&L was making a point and clearly wasn't meant to be taken literally. Whereas, you very much want to literally tear down these buildings and businesses. Whether you were joking about strippers or not, your point, which you reiterate here is that there isn't enough activity in this area to matter. Google Maps refutes this with a little more data than your personal anecdotes. It's one of the busiest blocks in the city. Whether that's a sad indictment of downtown as a whole is another discussion. And, that may not be a good enough reason for standing in the way of a stadium on this site. But, the point is that, aside from the Star building, this site and block or two surrounding it is not a desolate wasteland like you guys want to keep pretending it is. Hell, Main St through that same section has way less going on and it's got a streetcar stop in the middle of it.DColeKC wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 2:31 pm Well of course my comment about strippers coming and going wasn’t serious. My point remains the same though, the stretch of grand isn’t what I would call vibrant or high activity. From my perspective both as someone who’s profession is involved and as a long term downtown resident, the pros of these older buildings going away in favor a new baseball stadium far outweigh the cons. That’s my only point. I’d say misinformation would be implying that demolishing PNL for the stadium is equivocal to demolishing this part of EC. I can’t recall who said that but it’s certainly in the “nonsense” category.
Fair enough. I forgot where I'm at.
I love how easy you assume land rights & if the people owning those lots are up for it. It's been a long problem plaguing the city, which is why they banked all that land in the EV to basically avoid everything you're trying to force on a neighborhood that doesn't need it.dnweava wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 3:36 pm I don't like the storefronts on Grand being demolished but I still think it's the best site.
Actual proposal (seriously...), Let's just relocate those storefronts (at least save the architectural facades) and move them to ANY of these surface parking lots within a 2-3 block radius from the stadium. I mean look at the ABSURD amount of surface parking lots they can chose from.
You're probably going to have to find spots for the storefronts on Oak, too, at a minimum. But, really, this just shows that every negative thing you guys want to say about the stadium site can be applied to the Crossroads as a whole. There are more arrows on the west side of the map than the east side.dnweava wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 3:36 pm I don't like the storefronts on Grand being demolished but I still think it's the best site.
Actual proposal (seriously...), Let's just relocate those storefronts (at least save the architectural facades) and move them to ANY of these surface parking lots within a 2-3 block radius from the stadium. I mean look at the ABSURD amount of surface parking lots they can chose from.
Because a new stadium in between Grand and Locust will provide traffic and revenue lifts for several blocks in either direction on game days. This isn't a North Korea plan here, the idea is that it's a win for the area around it. You know, that's why the property owners are excited about it.TheSmokinPun wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 4:25 pmI love how easy you assume land rights & if the people owning those lots are up for it. It's been a long problem plaguing the city, which is why they banked all that land in the EV to basically avoid everything you're trying to force on a neighborhood that doesn't need it.dnweava wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 3:36 pm I don't like the storefronts on Grand being demolished but I still think it's the best site.
Actual proposal (seriously...), Let's just relocate those storefronts (at least save the architectural facades) and move them to ANY of these surface parking lots within a 2-3 block radius from the stadium. I mean look at the ABSURD amount of surface parking lots they can chose from.
I also love how this supposed "East Crossroads" stuff keeps bleeding into the rest of the Crossroads when deemed necessary to explain how'd it work in that site.
I put EV in that poll but more in favor of the East Crossroads now. At the time, I didn't know exactly what part of EC would be affected. Now with the location pretty much known and the apparently strong support for the location from the Royals, it makes more sense than EV. It creates a critical mass in an area that is adjacent to nicely gentrified parts of downtown without cutting the heart out of the area. An EV stadium addresses a huge gap in east downtown but also runs a moderate risk of just sitting there by itself for a couple of decades.
I'm 100% sure there is no plan to save the Star building and repurpose it. That would be a deal breaker for me as the stadium would need to go further east, which means more property needs purchased and it's not nearly as connected to other assets. Not to mention, keeping the same west to east super-block footprint as T-Mobile is the least disruptive idea to the road network.mourban wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 5:42 pm I don’t get the argument about the stadium only be active 80+ days per year when the KC Star building is active ZERO days per year and there is not any plan to change that.
If the stadium takes the place of the KC Star building and some of the buildings on Grand get demo’d to make way for it I think that’s a win.
However, if the KC Star building is saved to make a “village” or bar mall that competes with P&L, then the proposal gets more dicey. The ground floor of the Star building needs to be significantly revamped to make it an appealing street scape.
One question I’d like to see this forum coalesce around would be what are the “must haves” for a crossroads stadium. Keep the Star building or demo it? What should the ground floor of the stadium look like? Can they incorporate the Cigar Box and parts of the Grand street scape into the design?
God damn it, this is an excellent point.TheBigChuckbowski wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 6:34 pm Would Cigar Box really be Cigar Box if it was in a brand new mega-project with a Jose Pepper's next door instead of a strip club?
Did they change your mind? haha.DColeKC wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 6:35 pmGod damn it, this is an excellent point.TheBigChuckbowski wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 6:34 pm Would Cigar Box really be Cigar Box if it was in a brand new mega-project with a Jose Pepper's next door instead of a strip club?
Because nobody in the real world has paid that much attention to the true impacts yet. Just wait until eminent domain is thrown about.DColeKC wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 4:55 pmBecause a new stadium in between Grand and Locust will provide traffic and revenue lifts for several blocks in either direction on game days. This isn't a North Korea plan here, the idea is that it's a win for the area around it. You know, that's why the property owners are excited about it.TheSmokinPun wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 4:25 pmI love how easy you assume land rights & if the people owning those lots are up for it. It's been a long problem plaguing the city, which is why they banked all that land in the EV to basically avoid everything you're trying to force on a neighborhood that doesn't need it.dnweava wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 3:36 pm I don't like the storefronts on Grand being demolished but I still think it's the best site.
Actual proposal (seriously...), Let's just relocate those storefronts (at least save the architectural facades) and move them to ANY of these surface parking lots within a 2-3 block radius from the stadium. I mean look at the ABSURD amount of surface parking lots they can chose from.
I also love how this supposed "East Crossroads" stuff keeps bleeding into the rest of the Crossroads when deemed necessary to explain how'd it work in that site.
We have the two largest land owners in this area 100% excited and ready to sell. We have the Church which is the 3rd largest owner open to selling.
Here are some facts and I'm not saying there won't be a few hold outs but -
The total area, Grand to Locust, Truman to 17th is 15 acres. 11 of those acres is property that the owners are willing to sell.
East Village isn't all "land banked" in a nice little package just waiting for a signature to purchase. There are 12 property owners involved and what makes them less important to you than those in East Crossroads?
Lastly, you for sure have some business owners who have stated they're not going anywhere. Like the owner of The Pairing who bought the building in 2019. The only other area business owner I've seen take a hard stance isn't even in the area we're talking about.
Long time Crossroads business leaders have expressed support, even Stretch who said, “Having it in the Crossroads would benefit a hell of a lot more moms and pops, local businesses, than building a complete new entertainment district.”
I think there's more resistance on here, a forum, than out there in the real world.
Obviously there is nothing at 16th and McGee but you know that and you also know this will impact a much bigger space than just that spot but hey, why have a real discussion here about how a neighborhood would be impacted.GRID wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 9:10 pm I'll be in KC in February. I'm going to make sure and spend a lot of time in this vibrant urban neighborhood centered around 16th and McGee.
Since it's so vibrant now, any recommendations on where to park? I mean, I know hard it's is to park in areas like that.
I'm kidding kind of...
It's been a while since I have been there I guess. Last time I was in that area (few months ago), 90% of the street parking was empty, the busiest street and very wide (Grand) had a vehicle count lower than most residential collector streets (hardly any cars at all) and pedestrians and cyclists were pretty non existent.
If this is a vibrant neighborhood in KC then the bar is just way too low there. That area of downtown desperately needs density and if the Royals build a more urban/vertical ballpark district there, I think you could have something that is actually pretty rare in downtown KC, a built up area with people walking around all the time, even with a stadium.
I just don't think you are going to get that in EV. You have a chance to build a stadium into the urban fabric and create a very dense area with apartments etc that has a location that will create synergy to central crossroads, crown center and the CBD. It's amazing how much of a difference a few blocks makes here.
I may be very disappointed in what the Royals come up with I guess. I'm envisioning something that has basically never been done before. Something like a combination of Camden Yards with the old warehouse and PetCo, only better. I want the seating bowl of the stadium to be nearly invisible at street level as if you didn't know there was a stadium there when walking down the street. Very little areas of huge blank walls. The stadium should just flow into the 670 park to the northwest and the other sides should be street level retail with even midrise and high rise hotel/office and residential built into it.
Everyone is putting the cart before the horse here. There is still a great deal of sentiment for keeping the stadiums where they are, and so it's very possible voters will not vote to extend the tax for a new stadium downtown. Go read the comments on the joint Chiefs/Royals statement, and the post the Royals made on their Facebook page "Let your voice be heard." I don't see a lot of people there clamoring for a new downtown baseball stadium.Chris Stritzel wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 9:43 pm Let me just provide a word of caution about this whole situation: St. Louis Soccer Fans were positive that the sales tax vote to fund the original MLS2STL stadium plan in Downtown West would pass in April 2017. It was defeated 53-47. However, that was not an existing sales tax and was a measure that would've redirected the new 1/2-cent sales tax money ($50 Million) that would've been created for the North-South MetroLink (which was approved with 60% of the vote on the same night).
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Most voters will continue to remain "on the fence" about voting to renew the sales tax without specific information being publicly available. I believe fully that the Chiefs and Royals know this and are going to work faster towards getting their plans out there so that the public has more time to review, ask questions, and make an informed decision.
https://www.stlpr.org/government-politi ... um-funding