Downtown Baseball Stadium

[Highlander]

And KC will be Buffalo when it comes to pro sports. I really wish people would think about how important the Royals are to the city.

I agree here. Baseball is my choice of sport to watch live. It's affordable, the weather is pleasant and it's a slower/more cerebral game that is enhanced by attending rather than watch on TV. It's affordable to far more people in the metro than football. I very much enjoy attending games in downtown locales around the country. And frankly, I generally find these easier to get to and exit than Royals Stadium. When I was a kid, my parents took me to A's games on Brooklyn. I loved the experience. The urban setting really enhanced it for me even though it wasn't officially downtown or even all that close to downtown but the whole concept of going deeper into the city was something I embraced.

[GRID]

I'd like to see a way to preserve the length of buildings facing Grand from Truman to 16th, starting south of the drycleaner/Prime building. We have so few contiguous blocks of small buildings like that. Hate to lose it, but I feel like there is a way to maintain it and incorporate it.

This stretch is an absolute non-starter and isn't really part of the discussion. Almost every "design" goes more east and the buildings/business east crossroads are the ones I'm worried about (along with closing Oak for yet another superblock.

It would be very foolish to close Oak. I don't really see that happening. Leaving, what, Main St as the only intact piece of the grid west of 71?

First off, if traffic ever begins to warrant it, Grand should stop being closed. Right now, there is hardly any "through" traffic downtown. Because of all the highway access, nobody ever drives downtown for more than several blocks.

Not that it should matter, Grand should always be open except for maybe right after events let out at the arena, but I'm saying if downtown were to ever get busy, Grand would have to remain open. It was closed most times I drove it last week.

It really seems like every street in downtown KC is at about 10% traffic capacity (unless something is messing it up liking the closers, the streetcar etc). Even Oak, you can stand on a higher elevation and look all the way to crown center or from crown center all the way to downtown and it often has like three cars on it. What I'm saying is that if you do close Oak, you still have plenty of capacity for ballgame traffic on the street grid.

IDK, I just don't see what you guys see in this area. Half the land is parking lots, a big chuck is the star building, there seem to be churches and church parking lots everywhere. The buildings that are older are mostly non descript industrial /retail buildings probably from the 50's- 70's. Very few buildings are actually historic even by midwestern USA standards of "historic".

The church buildings need to go, including that new one, the star press needs to go, all the parking lots need to go. Half the existing buildings barely being used. Yet this site places the stadium directly near already developing areas. EV is not already developing and a stadium is not going to change that.

I can easily change my mind if I see a real plan for EV with a better designed stadium and real plans to develop the area around it. Not a building every seven years etc. And real plans from Modot on what they plan to do with the highways and real plans for what will be developed on all the empty land along 12th Street east of Grand.

Right now there are plans to deal with the south loop and build along both sides of it. And at KC's rate of growth, I don't see much more than that happening downtown in a reasonable time frame. Especially when KCMO is also trying to build out the River front, west bottoms, all the infill still needed in crossroads, crown center and now the entire main street corridor through midtown. Construction already seems way down in urban KCMO. That's why I don't get excited about new development in the west bottoms. Spreading development too thin.

[WoodDraw]

This stretch is an absolute non-starter and isn't really part of the discussion. Almost every "design" goes more east and the buildings/business east crossroads are the ones I'm worried about (along with closing Oak for yet another superblock.

It would be very foolish to close Oak. I don't really see that happening. Leaving, what, Main St as the only intact piece of the grid west of 71?

IDK, I just don't see what you guys see in this area. Half the land is parking lots, a big chuck is the star building, there seem to be churches and church parking lots everywhere. The buildings that are older are mostly non descript industrial /retail buildings probably from the 50's- 70's. Very few buildings are actually historic even by midwestern USA standards of "historic".

The church buildings need to go, including that new one, the star press needs to go, all the parking lots need to go. Half the existing buildings barely being used. Yet this site places the stadium directly near already developing areas. EV is not already developing and a stadium is not going to change that.

I can easily change my mind if I see a real plan for EV with a better designed stadium and real plans to develop the area around it. Not a building every seven years etc. And real plans from Modot on what they plan to do with the highways and real plans for what will be developed on all the empty land along 12th Street east of Grand.

My main concern, and we're talking in circles, is land ownership. The ev had been banked for this very reason and the promise (which I think is bs) is that it will be developed mixed use.

The crossroads is not banked, and is being pushed largely by the star building owners and cordish along with another developer that meh.

Cordish still has p&l buildings left and two lots south of Truman that were submitted prior to the changes in incentives. That idea that they'll build here is fanciful before those.

My fear is that the crossroads will turn into a parking lot with a shitty baseball team in the middle of it. I'll note here too that there's a reason they're leaking this and not talking about it directly.

It's because their pretend billions of investment go away. Want to do it? Put out a plan and let me see it. Otherwise I'm trusting my intuition on what's going on.

[TheUrbanRoo]

Counterpoint to the Crossroads becoming a parking lot...the stadium would also cap off two more sections of the 670 cap and give us a fully enclsoed dense central park. And I'm sure would get all the lots around the 670 cap developed too. That's something very very valuable...

[Highlander]

It would be very foolish to close Oak. I don't really see that happening. Leaving, what, Main St as the only intact piece of the grid west of 71?

IDK, I just don't see what you guys see in this area. Half the land is parking lots, a big chuck is the star building, there seem to be churches and church parking lots everywhere. The buildings that are older are mostly non descript industrial /retail buildings probably from the 50's- 70's. Very few buildings are actually historic even by midwestern USA standards of "historic".

The church buildings need to go, including that new one, the star press needs to go, all the parking lots need to go. Half the existing buildings barely being used. Yet this site places the stadium directly near already developing areas. EV is not already developing and a stadium is not going to change that.

I can easily change my mind if I see a real plan for EV with a better designed stadium and real plans to develop the area around it. Not a building every seven years etc. And real plans from Modot on what they plan to do with the highways and real plans for what will be developed on all the empty land along 12th Street east of Grand.

My main concern, and we're talking in circles, is land ownership. The ev had been banked for this very reason and the promise (which I think is bs) is that it will be developed mixed use.

The crossroads is not banked, and is being pushed largely by the star building owners and cordish along with another developer that meh.

Cordish still has p&l buildings left and two lots south of Truman that were submitted prior to the changes in incentives. That idea that they'll build here is fanciful before those.

My fear is that the crossroads will turn into a parking lot with a shitty baseball team in the middle of it. I'll note here too that there's a reason they're leaking this and not talking about it directly.

It's because their pretend billions of investment go away. Want to do it? Put out a plan and let me see it. Otherwise I'm trusting my intuition on what's going on.

I thought about that too. Not unlike the block north of TMobile (then Sprint) Arena when that was built.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0989055 ... ?entry=ttu

[WoodDraw]

Counterpoint to the Crossroads becoming a parking lot...the stadium would also cap off two more sections of the 670 cap and give us a fully enclsoed dense central park. And I'm sure would get all the lots around the 670 cap developed too. That's something very very valuable...

I think you underestimate the slog it will take on every governmental level to get any type of development like this approved if it involves the interstate.

I agree it's valuable land though and that's why cordish bought two of the slots already. That's a reason they want this location. I'm sure they'll get around to building on them someday.

Highlander makes the point that I made earlier that there are lots surrounding the current district that have sat with no progress.

My basis for supporting incentives and sales tax comes only with surrounding development.

I think the crossroads would be destructive and not constructive towards that goal. I hold out some hope for the ev site, but I remain skeptical.

(I do think the royals badly need an urban park, and I think sporting will eventually want that too. The chiefs should remain where they are).

[KCPowercat]

If I took an overhead of this crossroads area today and made it lower quality, we'd be on here bitching about urban renewal of the 50's and we can't believe we lost all that. Then imagine there is a plot of land empty less than 2000 feet to the north not having to lose anything. We'd lose our collective minds over that decision. But now EV is "too out of the way". It's less than a half mile from P&L. LOL wtf. seriously.

I'm done discussing it until something more substantial comes up from the Royals. I'll leave by saying if this crossroads site is picked, it will have huge impacts well beyond the tight little area everybody is trying to hyper focus on with the Star building and lol look a shit bar and a parking lot. We'll have all kinds of garages built and removing even more buildings. We'll lose Oak. We'll push every bit of N/S traffic to Main and hamstring the streetcar during baseball games as there is no entrance/exit onto highways at that site either.

[WoodDraw]

Remember when he used to all post images showing comparable walking distances from tsc compared to downtown?

I largely agree with kcp.

I also completely agree with let's wait until we get something to talk about.

[GRID]

Don't get me wrong, I think the EV site is fine if that is what is chosen. I just don't think anything will be built around it. It will just be the stadium and maybe a very small retail development similar to what cordish built near Bush stadium, but smaller. And I don't ever see Modot properly cleaning up the highway infrastructure of the area.

At this point, I'm more worried that a new stadium will never happen in the first place to get worked up about location.

Maybe I'm just being way too negative about it, but I just don't see a lot of support for a new stadium in KC from a public funding standpoint.

[chingon]

I hope they can get a stadium done in KC, but right now, I think there is about a 50% chance the Royals are not in KC in 2035. In another ten years, places like Nashville and Charlotte will be too much larger and will build a downtown stadium for the Royals in a heartbeat.

And KC will be Buffalo when it comes to pro sports. I really wish people would think about how important the Royals are to the city.

I, for one, would much, much, much rather live in Buffalo than Charlotte or Nashville.

[GRID]

I hope they can get a stadium done in KC, but right now, I think there is about a 50% chance the Royals are not in KC in 2035. In another ten years, places like Nashville and Charlotte will be too much larger and will build a downtown stadium for the Royals in a heartbeat.

And KC will be Buffalo when it comes to pro sports. I really wish people would think about how important the Royals are to the city.

I, for one, would much, much, much rather live in Buffalo than Charlotte or Nashville.

And some people would rather live in Joplin than KC. What is your point? I'm saying that once KC loses MLB, it will never get it back.

Buffalo actually would LOVE to have a MLB team. They are just way too small now. They would probably average 30k a game if they got a team though if you look at their AAA support and their stadium was built to be expanded for MLB. Attendance alone is not enough though. Buffalo will be lucky to hold on to their NHL team as they continue to slip in national rankings.

I agree though, it's an under rated city. Nashville and Charlotte are not my types of cities either. Doesn't mean they won't surpass KC in the coming years just like Denver, Dallas, Atlanta, Austin etc have. Actually Charlotte already has too.

And it's not just Charlotte and Nasvhille.

Portland, Salt Lake City, San Antonio, Austin, Orlando etc are some others that have serious efforts to get a relocated MLB team or expansion franchise and would build a stadium if they somehow got a team. All but SLC and Nashville are larger than KC and Nashvile will likely pass KC soon while SLC has a huge Consolidated metro area of nearly 3 million.

KC needs to take care of the Royals so they are in the metro for another 50 years. MLB requires a larger metro than any other sport. Having a MLB team truly means you are a major league city. Any city with a million people (or even less) can have any of the other leagues, but a MLB city is an actual major (generally top 30) market. It would suck for KC to lose that status.

[TheUrbanRoo]

I don't understand this insinuation that EV is going to be thought-out by a bunch of numbskull neanderthals that have drool coming out of their mouths. You act like these people have an IQ of 2. And I even like the Crossroads site too, but my God...

[KCMOJoe89]

Don't get me wrong, I think the EV site is fine if that is what is chosen. I just don't think anything will be built around it. It will just be the stadium and maybe a very small retail development similar to what cordish built near Bush stadium, but smaller. And I don't ever see Modot properly cleaning up the highway infrastructure of the area.

At this point, I'm more worried that a new stadium will never happen in the first place to get worked up about location.

Maybe I'm just being way too negative about it, but I just don't see a lot of support for a new stadium in KC from a public funding standpoint.

I don't understand the worry about a potential lack of development around the EV site.

There was an overhead site layout during the August presentation that showed the stadium taking up most of the available land in EV, with smaller areas north and south of the stadium for additional development. Is the worry that these parcels wouldn't be developed? If the worry was development won't spill over to Paseo West, I'd understand the concern.

Building in EV provides the best opportunity to eliminate one of the largest surface lot eyesores we have in this city.

[dukuboy1]

I think the EV provides a great location and again as I have stated several times a blank canvas to develop from in and around. If we look at the T-Mobile. It was built with an entertainment across the street. There has been a lot of development near TMobile but also spanning the blocks to the West over to Barney Allis Plaza area. Street Car 2 blocks West of the Center and helped to generate more development. You could say some of the development a few block North & East of TMobile with PickWick, Indigo, etc. benefited. But right next to TMobile to the North is a vast parking lot/empty lots. There have been some nice renovations & repurposing of buildings on Grand but no new construction along Grand. Most of the new stuff has happened blocks away but the Center was a major impact.

The EV will be the same way, and with more empty lots it means what you build it will all be new for the most part. There may be some building get renovated but there is not a lot of opportunity since they don't exist. But for those worried they will just build a stadium and nothing else will happen I do not agree. That side of town is looking for a catalyst, the stadium is the catalyst and it will spur development in all directions, some of which will happen in tandem with the stadium being built. People will look to build hotels, and apartments and retail not just in the immediate EV but to the South & Eats to be ready to go once the stadium is open. Just like what happened with TMobile the development flood gates opened but unlike TMobile and P&L when they were built we now have some history and a track record that shows what will happen when you build.

[TheBigChuckbowski]

I think the EV provides a great location and again as I have stated several times a blank canvas to develop from in and around. If we look at the T-Mobile. It was built with an entertainment across the street. There has been a lot of development near TMobile but also spanning the blocks to the West over to Barney Allis Plaza area. Street Car 2 blocks West of the Center and helped to generate more development. You could say some of the development a few block North & East of TMobile with PickWick, Indigo, etc. benefited. But right next to TMobile to the North is a vast parking lot/empty lots. There have been some nice renovations & repurposing of buildings on Grand but no new construction along Grand. Most of the new stuff has happened blocks away but the Center was a major impact.

The EV will be the same way, and with more empty lots it means what you build it will all be new for the most part. There may be some building get renovated but there is not a lot of opportunity since they don't exist. But for those worried they will just build a stadium and nothing else will happen I do not agree. That side of town is looking for a catalyst, the stadium is the catalyst and it will spur development in all directions, some of which will happen in tandem with the stadium being built. People will look to build hotels, and apartments and retail not just in the immediate EV but to the South & Eats to be ready to go once the stadium is open. Just like what happened with TMobile the development flood gates opened but unlike TMobile and P&L when they were built we now have some history and a track record that shows what will happen when you build.

I don't see the argument that T-Mobile Center contributed to any development. P&L, yes. T-Mobile Center, no. There are surface lots to the north, east and south. Empty lots to the north. And, the only reason there aren't surface lots to the west is because that's where P&L was built.

I think we should all assume that any surface lot within a couple blocks that isn't part of phase 1 of the stadium district construction is not going to be built on for the foreseeable future. And, any site that doesn't have enough parking within 4 blocks is going to lead to buildings being replaced with parking.

The Crossroads already has too much parking, we don't need to incentivize more.

[aknowledgeableperson]

"Maybe I'm just being way too negative about it, but I just don't see a lot of support for a new stadium in KC from a public funding standpoint."

I think that is why there is not a big push or incentive for Jackson County to help fund a downtown stadium. If the team decided to stay at the TSC the county would be going all in to get an agreement with the team. That's why I keep saying if the city wants a downtown stadium it will have to find a way to fund it on its own.

"And, any site that doesn't have enough parking within 4 blocks is going to lead to buildings being replaced with parking.
...
The Crossroads already has too much parking, we don't need to incentivize more."

Not familiar with other newer downtown stadiums but I would guess there is some secure parking (probably a parking structure) next to the stadium for players, team personnel, opposing team busses, press, and likely a TV truck.

[GRID]

I think the EV provides a great location and again as I have stated several times a blank canvas to develop from in and around. If we look at the T-Mobile. It was built with an entertainment across the street. There has been a lot of development near TMobile but also spanning the blocks to the West over to Barney Allis Plaza area. Street Car 2 blocks West of the Center and helped to generate more development. You could say some of the development a few block North & East of TMobile with PickWick, Indigo, etc. benefited. But right next to TMobile to the North is a vast parking lot/empty lots. There have been some nice renovations & repurposing of buildings on Grand but no new construction along Grand. Most of the new stuff has happened blocks away but the Center was a major impact.

The EV will be the same way, and with more empty lots it means what you build it will all be new for the most part. There may be some building get renovated but there is not a lot of opportunity since they don't exist. But for those worried they will just build a stadium and nothing else will happen I do not agree. That side of town is looking for a catalyst, the stadium is the catalyst and it will spur development in all directions, some of which will happen in tandem with the stadium being built. People will look to build hotels, and apartments and retail not just in the immediate EV but to the South & Eats to be ready to go once the stadium is open. Just like what happened with TMobile the development flood gates opened but unlike TMobile and P&L when they were built we now have some history and a track record that shows what will happen when you build.

A lot of development near TMobile? Where? Grand is kinda moving along with a handful of renovation projects in over ten years, but that's about it and those would have likely happened anyway. The area in general has lost more buildings than it has gained.

I get what you guys are saying about using empty land instead and like I said, I'm probably fine with it. I just don't think you will see much development around the stadium and you are going to end up with a stadium facing the ugliest part of the city.

Why would Sherman develop high rise residential towers to make a profit when nobody else is doing it? Cordish is doing it very conservatively and they have massive incentives. So KCMO is going to give the Royals tens of millions of dollars in public money per tower so the Royals can probably break even on doing development they know nothing about?

I don't like the EV site because all I see is a stadium facing the shitty east loop highway infrastructure and what will be parking lots in Paseo West.

Now if I see an actual real plan to develop the surrounding area with numbers and dates to back up that something will actually get built before the year 2075 then sure, EV seems fine. But I'm not seeing it. If it does happen, it's going to take hundreds of millions of dollars of public money in addition to the stadium and infrastructure to subsidize the development. Where will this money come from and who will approve it? They can barely keep the light towers incentives intact and it will take decades to build all those. So even if Cordish was a development partner in EV, why would they all of the sudden build several new towers when they are currently building one tower every 5 or more years?

With the River Market, Riverfront, West Bottoms, Crossroads and all of midtown and plaza fighting over the same development, I don't see the EV/paseo West building out in any of our lifetimes. KC is just now starting to see the core of the rivermarket built out and it was already halfway there when it started.

There is like one tower crane up in downtown now and it's building a small building. How is EV going to all of the sudden be the gaslamp district or navy yard or LoDo where a dozen towers go up a year for a decade?

So that's why I say place it near other stuff so you guarantee it won't be an isolated stadium and a totally dead part of the city.

But just maybe I'm wrong and EV will be transformed and that would be awesome too.

[TheUrbanRoo]

Because that era or wave of projects from 2016-22 just ended and we’re about to enter the next wave…670 cap, Royals, all the RM projects and the next Cordish stuff. If you’re looking for more cranes, we’re about to start the next big phase.

[GRID]

Because that era or wave of projects from 2016-22 just ended and we’re about to enter the next wave…670 cap, Royals, all the RM projects and the next Cordish stuff. If you’re looking for more cranes, we’re about to start the next big phase.

Right, there will likely be another small building boom along 670 in the coming years. Do you really think there can be another one in EV at the same time? If so, who would build the towers?

[droopy]

- we are definitely talking in circles about the same stuff again following the recent news article about a single meeting about which zero real details are known

- I prefer the EV site. Why?

The Royals’ ownership group has stated an anticipated $1bil for the stadium “in partnership” with the county taxpayers (ie we pay for it) and they have verbally stated a plan to contribute another $1bil towards additional development surrounding the taxpayer funded stadium. The EV site is ready to go and has the space for the full plan (stadium and additional team funded development)

The Crossroads site would clearly have a more immediate positive impact to the surrounding entertainment…bars and restaurants…PnL and independent Crossroads businesses.

So why do I prefer the EV? I don’t believe the Royals will spend a penny towards development in the Crossroads. I am highly skeptical but hopeful they will in EV. More development in the loop is fantastic.

Conversely, I think there will be current Crossroads property owners with those marginal type buildings (that some seem willing to destroy) that will “develop” their properties into surface parking lots to capitalize on $30-$50 per game full parking lots and minimal taxes.

I also fear that the buildings that don’t become surface lots will become corporate run type establishments. I don’t mind PnL and the vibe they have going there but I don’t want it further into the Crossroads. I agree that these lots will eventually be developed even if the stadium goes to EV. BUT I think it will happen more organically as the neighborhood has been doing for the last 20 years.

Edit to add that I am also skeptical that enhanced revenue streams to the ownership group from the new stadium will translate into team payroll and a better product on the field.