Capping the Loop

[smh]

The elephant in the room is that cordish is going to keep closing grand.

And I was just responding to kcp's question if all of this is made up with a predetermined answer. And yep.

100%

[KCPowercat]

This seems like we're getting what Cordish wants and this public feedback meetings are window dressing. Let's just call it what it is. They made a significant investment downtown and this is their payoff.

Has there been one thing changed based on public feedback on actual design? Amenities are all vaporware right now anyways so that isn't any real changes.

It just never ends man.

This design isn't even slightly similar to what Cordish was originally involved in. There are several developers and key downtown people involved in this. It's a collaborative project but it's intent is for all of downtown and not some kind of reward to Cordish for having invested a billion dollars downtown. I'm sure that gets them some weight, as it should, but implying everyone is just getting what one developer wants is shortsighted.

It's never going to end as Cordish has a huge impact right here so why should it? You don't represent them so you don't have to come defend any perceived criticism of them on here (which my comment was not).
How is this current design fundamentally different from what Cordish own renderings showed years ago (quoted below)? I've already agreed they are entitled to a heavy hand in this design but it doesn't feel like any feedback on the fundamental design of the park is being considered from either the public or traffic studies or the streetcar's input. That's what it feels like, be happy to be shown where I'm wrong.

I will say that in Cordish's own renderings from a number of years ago, they had Walnut closed in a hypothetical park. So if they're against it now, I wonder what the change was? Just going by this, I'd say the new renderings with the Walnut closure are no mistake.

[DColeKC]

The elephant in the room is that cordish is going to keep closing grand.

And I was just responding to kcp's question if all of this is made up with a predetermined answer. And yep.

I’ve addressed this with what I know. The city is working with Cordish and T-Mobile on a permanent solution that doesn’t require Grand to be shut down outside of arena events and the very rare festival. The city manager has told me personally that shutting down grand outside of event days needs to stop soon and it’s high on his priority list.

I have a hard time grasping why some of you think Cordish likes the situation with Grand or that they someone enjoy shutting it down. It’s sucks for them just like everyone else that hates it. It has a negative impact on guests trying to get to their destinations and on two light residents trying to get home. It’s the best option at this time.

There is a comedy show tonight at T-Mobile that I’m attending. Grand is currently open but will close around 6pm or so. That’s not Cordish doing it.

[DColeKC]

This seems like we're getting what Cordish wants and this public feedback meetings are window dressing. Let's just call it what it is. They made a significant investment downtown and this is their payoff.

Has there been one thing changed based on public feedback on actual design? Amenities are all vaporware right now anyways so that isn't any real changes.

It just never ends man.

This design isn't even slightly similar to what Cordish was originally involved in. There are several developers and key downtown people involved in this. It's a collaborative project but it's intent is for all of downtown and not some kind of reward to Cordish for having invested a billion dollars downtown. I'm sure that gets them some weight, as it should, but implying everyone is just getting what one developer wants is shortsighted.

It's never going to end as Cordish has a huge impact right here so why should it? You don't represent them so you don't have to come defend any perceived criticism of them on here (which my comment was not).
How is this current design fundamentally different from what Cordish own renderings showed years ago (quoted below)? I've already agreed they are entitled to a heavy hand in this design but it doesn't feel like any feedback on the fundamental design of the park is being considered from either the public or traffic studies or the streetcar's input. That's what it feels like, be happy to be shown where I'm wrong.

I will say that in Cordish's own renderings from a number of years ago, they had Walnut closed in a hypothetical park. So if they're against it now, I wonder what the change was? Just going by this, I'd say the new renderings with the Walnut closure are no mistake.

Compare this old rendering to the latest ones. Massive differences and not even the same park.

While I don’t serve as an official representative of any developer, I’m the one person on here with the most knowledge about Cordish. I’m not going to keep quiet when I see false information or statements being made. This project isn’t being led by them. The people in charge are taking public feedback and I’m sure there are several changes to be made before final approval. Traffic engineers have been all over this from day one.

You keep criticizing Cordish and saying you’re not. Implying they’re steering the ship on this and claiming no one else gets a say is false.

I don’t care that anyone criticizes them but a few of you sure care that I respond. You take it as defending them and in some cases I sure do. Most of the time I’m just pushing back on inaccurate statements.

[TheUrbanRoo]

I thought Cordish hasn't even donated yet? Unless they're negotiating it right now...

[GRID]

Compare this old rendering to the latest ones. Massive differences and not even the same park.

Yeah for sure. I was very hard on the park with those first renderings that looked like they were just gong to throw some decks over a couple blocks, not even creating an actual ventilated tunnel.

This looks much better.

It still needs a signature iconic structure or destination art piece or something though.

[KCPowercat]

What is different? I'm not talking amenities, I'm talking the actual foundational elements/infrastructure of the park. Nothing has changed. it expanded a block to the west (thankfully) due to the city getting more money for it.

It feels we got "maybe close baltimore" but it's been nothing but lip service. The consultants own boards say Walnut closing is going to impact the streetcar, nobody seems to care or be proposing additional changes to help that.

And DCole almost everything I'm criticizing is at the city level. That is the leadership that does not appear to be listening to any public feedback on this or private feedback from entities like the streetcar. I got no problem with Cordish in this. edit - I'll even go further in saying I appreciate them being engaged in this and looking to help fund it. I know it helps their properties and marketability in the end but they are still out there trying to get it done.

[WoodDraw]

Saying cordish is talking about it doesn’t help me. I want signed agreements.

So far I’m just reading pr and vapor renderings. I’ve been in this too long to trust this shit.

[WoodDraw]

And DCole almost everything I'm criticizing is at the city level. That is the leadership that does not appear to be listening to any public feedback on this or private feedback from entities like the streetcar. I got no problem with Cordish in this.

It’s getting a touch of signature project creep to it where everyone is just going along because they’ve secured funding.

I agree with the end goal, but this is client creep as well. We’re focusing on two entities instead of the future of the city.

[KCPowercat]

And DCole almost everything I'm criticizing is at the city level. That is the leadership that does not appear to be listening to any public feedback on this or private feedback from entities like the streetcar. I got no problem with Cordish in this.

It’s getting a touch of signature project creep to it where everyone is just going along because they’ve secured funding.

I agree with the end goal, but this is client creep as well. We’re focusing on two entities instead of the future of the city.

The amount of amenities and trees added to the last design would confirm this comment. There is a lot of power in the meetings and everybody is getting something added they want and can point to as something they added. Yet the bigger concerns aren't being addressed, those are harder to figure out.

[SHPNeighbor]

The decision was made before the meeting lol. People involved were told it was going to be walnut so it leaked pretty quickly.

Walnut being closed as part of this park must be the worst kept secret over the last decade considering it's been discussed to death on this forum for 5 years or more at minimum.

To make this park great, there needs to be at least one super block and Walnut makes the most sense.

I feel like this is baked, but I actually think Baltimore makes the most sense as it doesn't connect to River Market so has the least utility as a through street. This would also have allowed the "SMH Patented Fun Hill" to be deployed wherein the hill between Baltimore and Wyandotte is kept simple and used as both amphitheater seating and a great sitting spot to watch the world go by. Side benefit: Families can sled down it on one of our last few snow storms before excessive heat becomes the norm.

I feel like closing Walnut is a good choice as it would decrease car traffic going into P&L. Baltimore has several hotels built wand soon to be built with a block or two of the park. Closing off Baltimore could create some logistical issues for some. I also like the pavilion having more room for crowds.

[KCPowercat]

a tiered pavilion from Wyandotte to Main would handle even more people.

[WoodDraw]

I feel like talking about amenities is so wrong. Not to give any shade to the people here.

The question isn’t how we program it (although I have concerns there)

The question is if we’re making a change in traffic that justifies everything, and if we’re doing it for the long term benefit.

I know I’m not a popular commentator here on this. But I think it’s important to think about these changes.

[KCPowercat]

Oh I totally agree that is what we need to be talking about right now and what doesn't seem to be getting any movement.

[DColeKC]

None of us here are traffic engineers. Traffic engineers have looked at this and agreed closing a street to create a super block wouldn’t be detrimental to traffic in general. I personally don’t care which street it is even though I think walnut is the best option. I’ve watched traffic handle that intersection from my apartment balcony for years now. While antidotal, it’s helped shape my opinion.

I also think closing a street for a better park is the right path forward for the future. One has to imagine personally owned vehicles will decrease over time.

I believe the management and programming are extremely important even though we may not be at that point yet. If not properly managed, controlled and programmed, this park will just become another underutilized green space and shelter for homeless.

The city doesn’t have the best reputation for operating and maintaining projects they’re involved in. I’m glad other various entities are involved.

[smh]

None of us here are traffic engineers. Traffic engineers have looked at this and agreed closing a street to create a super block wouldn’t be detrimental to traffic in general. I personally don’t care which street it is even though I think walnut is the best option. I’ve watched traffic handle that intersection from my apartment balcony for years now. While antidotal, it’s helped shape my opinion.

I also think closing a street for a better park is the right path forward for the future. One has to imagine personally owned vehicles will decrease over time.

I believe the management and programming are extremely important even though we may not be at that point yet. If not properly managed, controlled and programmed, this park will just become another underutilized green space and shelter for homeless.

The city doesn’t have the best reputation for operating and maintaining projects they’re involved in. I’m glad other various entities are involved.

Traffic engineers hired by the team who wants to build this park.

[TheUrbanRoo]

They already said at the meeting they’re wanting to close Walnut over Baltimore because it’s flatter and doesn’t have as much grade to deal with.

[DColeKC]

None of us here are traffic engineers. Traffic engineers have looked at this and agreed closing a street to create a super block wouldn’t be detrimental to traffic in general. I personally don’t care which street it is even though I think walnut is the best option. I’ve watched traffic handle that intersection from my apartment balcony for years now. While antidotal, it’s helped shape my opinion.

I also think closing a street for a better park is the right path forward for the future. One has to imagine personally owned vehicles will decrease over time.

I believe the management and programming are extremely important even though we may not be at that point yet. If not properly managed, controlled and programmed, this park will just become another underutilized green space and shelter for homeless.

The city doesn’t have the best reputation for operating and maintaining projects they’re involved in. I’m glad other various entities are involved.

Traffic engineers hired by the team who wants to build this park.

Are you saying when you're hired to do your job, you don't actually do your job but simply tell whoever hired you what they want to hear?

This is a generational project. The powers to be want the truth, they don't want to be told by the professionals they hire that anything they dream up is great. They want the truth, even if it goes against their ideal design or layout.

[herrfrank]

I feel like closing Walnut is a good choice as it would decrease car traffic going into P&L. Baltimore has several hotels built wand soon to be built with a block or two of the park. Closing off Baltimore could create some logistical issues for some. I also like the pavilion having more room for crowds.

Walnut is lightly used, this is true. But so is Baltimore Avenue at Truman. Most downtown traffic comes off the highway viaduct at 14th or 12th Streets, then cross-town. Crossroads traffic uses the Pennway/ SW Blvd exit or the B'Way exit, turning south.

Traffic between downtown and Crossroads on the N-S avenues is fairly light. The Cap will make it even lighter in my estimation. I favor closing both Baltimore and Walnut so that the park runs from Wyandotte to Grand.

Oak and other east avenues can handle the traffic (plus Main and Wyandotte).

[KCPowercat]

None of us here are traffic engineers. Traffic engineers have looked at this and agreed closing a street to create a super block wouldn’t be detrimental to traffic in general.

This is not accurate. Their own presentation boards say it will. 3rd and 4th bullet address this